# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 48
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/941 "2011-03-24T14:10:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > either the people running his tanks are the bravest people ever or they aren’t allowed to watch the news. Or else they are simply, in the most ancient phrase, loyal to their salt. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/942 "2011-03-24T15:38:25Z")
“You are not my friend. I do not like you.” “… I disagree. Also, have I mentioned I love communism, by the power of Greyskull?” You can not buy this type of comedy. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/943 "2011-03-25T08:00:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Or else they are simply, in the most ancient phrase, loyal to their salt. Or else they may, you know, actually believe in what they are fighting for. :rolleyes: It is easy to dismiss the motivations of our enemies. Disingenuous and dogmatic, but easy nonetheless. Fight the urge, my friend. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/944 "2011-03-25T08:50:03Z")
A meeting of the African Union is going to take place in Ethiopia to discuss options for the end of the conflict. Representatives of the main belligerants, of the UN and of the EU will be present. The French foreign minister has stated (about this meeting) that any solution not involving Kadhafi leaving power won’t be considered. Of course, it’s still unclear whether all countries involved are agreeing about the precise goals of the operation, but I think it’s a safe bet to assume they do agree on this because I frankly can’t see how they could state “Job done, let the Libyans sort it out amongst themselves now” with Kadhafi still in charge. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/945 "2011-03-25T08:57:35Z")
Hrm… I hadn’t considered diplomacy to have any chance of working on a thug like Quadaffi, but it might I suppose. I’m not hopeful though. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/946 "2011-03-25T08:57:50Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > A meeting of the African Union is going to take place in Ethiopia to discuss options for the end of the conflict. Representatives of the main belligerants, of the UN and of the EU will be present. > > The French foreign minister has stated (about this meeting) that any solution not involving Kadhafi leaving power won’t be considered. Of course, it’s still unclear whether all countries involved are agreeing about the precise goals of the operation, but I think it’s a safe bet to assume they do agree on this because I frankly can’t see how they could state “Job done, let the Libyans sort it out amongst themselves now” with Kadhafi still in charge. A French government official is declaring what will and will not be considered at an African Union meeting? This is not adding up in my book. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 9:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/947 "2011-03-25T09:22:25Z")
[http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/how-a-onetime-friend-to-gadhafi-became-his-rival/article1927852/](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/world/africa-mideast/how-a-onetime-friend-to-gadhafi-became-his-rival/article1927852/) Here’s something handy. An interview with a member of the Transitional Council. > [@](#): > > The man who taught Moammar Gadhafi to drive a car, and helped him seize power, has learned hard lessons about how revolutions can go awry. > > Omar Hariri, 67, speaks with sadness about his leadership role among the conspirators who toppled the king more than four decades ago in the coup that transformed his shy classmate into the Arab world’s most flamboyant dictator. > > … > > “This time, the people will be our safeguards,” he said. “They will elect a new president and he will serve for a limited time. He could be removed if he does not serve the people. And, of course, we will need a parliament, and a multiparty system.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/948 "2011-03-25T13:41:36Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Or else they may, you know, actually believe in what they are fighting for. :rolleyes: It is easy to dismiss the motivations of our enemies. Disingenuous and dogmatic, but easy nonetheless. Fight the urge, my friend. Well . . . no. I can imagine a soldier sticking by Gaddafi out of lifelong habit, personal loyalty, tribal loyalty, or simply a mercenary’s loyalty to the paymaster (don’t knock it; when the mob came for Louis XVI at Versailles, his Swiss guards stood and died to a man). But not because he believes in Gaddafi’s “Green” ideology, no. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/949 "2011-03-25T13:49:10Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > It will be the latter, since the Tomahawk production line is now closed. > [@carnivorousplant](#): > > What will replace it? Diplomacy? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/950 "2011-03-25T13:53:48Z")
Actually, I don’t believe that the Tomahawk is being phased out, only the nuclear variant. IIRC. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/951 "2011-03-25T14:08:49Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Diplomacy? 😃 “The best diplomat is a fully charged phaser bank.” -Lt. Commander Montgomery Scott. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/952 "2011-03-25T14:13:11Z")
Seems you’re right, **Finn** , as [we appear to have bought 200 this year](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2010/12/dod-contracts_4431.htm). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/953 "2011-03-25T14:15:35Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > A French government official is declaring what will and will not be considered at an African Union meeting? This is not adding up in my book. Maybe I poorly expressed myself. Obviously, what he meant is that any proposal from the AU that doesn’t include Kadhafi stepping down won’t be considered by the alliance (or, at least, by France). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/954 "2011-03-25T22:43:51Z")
Anderson Cooper was reporting last night about a public funeral for civilian victims of airstrikes that the Gaddafi regime staged in Tripoli, but when one of the coffins was opened (in Arab funerals, the body is removed from the coffin and buried in a shroud only), there was no body. Oh, no . . . Og, “Bob,” and Allah . . . **Gadaffi has ZOMBIES!!!** :eek: ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/955 "2011-03-25T23:22:03Z")
I can’t exclude that there has been civilian victims, of course. But there are a lot of doubts about the reality of funerals, indeed. In one case, no body was ever brought where the tombs had been dug, in another, no relative of the deceased could be found during a celebrated collective burial, etc… Also, an obvious fake bombing near a civilian dwelling was presented to journalists. Remains of an american missile were present, but the “trench” supposed to have been created by the explosion couldn’t have been the result of the explosion of such a missile (according to the journalist of course, but even myself could tell that if 1m American missiles only do that amount of damage, I can provide the US army with more efficient explosives made in my kitchen for half the cost and walk out with a profit of about US 499 990). Also, bullet holes in a wall, allegedly fired at a 45° angle by an aircraft were identified by the journalists as the result of small arms fire (they even found AK47 cartridges on the house’s roof). There’s quite obviously a lot of (bad) staging on Libya’s part. And this can only be explained if they seriously lack actual dead civilians and destroyed housing (again, I’m not saying that there was _zero_ civilian victims). ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/956 "2011-03-25T23:23:31Z")
Also, it has been announced that the UK and France would make a common proposal for an exit plan in short order. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/957 "2011-03-26T01:19:58Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I can’t exclude that there has been civilian victims, of course. But there are a lot of doubts about the reality of funerals, indeed. In one case, no body was ever brought where the tombs had been dug, in another, no relative of the deceased could be found during a celebrated collective burial, etc… > Also, an obvious fake bombing near a civilian dwelling was presented to journalists. Remains of an american missile were present, but the “trench” supposed to have been created by the explosion couldn’t have been the result of the explosion of such a missile (according to the journalist of course, but even myself could tell that if 1m American missiles only do that amount of damage, I can provide the US army with more efficient explosives made in my kitchen for half the cost and walk out with a profit of about US 499 990). Also, bullet holes in a wall, allegedly fired at a 45° angle by an aircraft were identified by the journalists as the result of small arms fire (they even found AK47 cartridges on the house’s roof). > There’s quite obviously a lot of (bad) staging on Libya’s part. And this can only be explained if they seriously lack actual dead civilians and destroyed housing (again, I’m not saying that there was _zero_ civilian victims). A BBC newsman was reporting from Tripoli and said he’d been told of horrific civilian casualties. But all requests to enter the hospital to see some were firmly rejected. You’d think they’d want to play those up if they were real. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/958 "2011-03-26T01:25:00Z")
They need to get Green Helmet Guy on the case. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/959 "2011-03-26T02:10:57Z")
Assuming all sanctions on Libya are effectively maintained, and assuming some way is still found to funnel aid to the rebels, how long before Gaddafi simply runs out of ammunition? Does he have any way to manufacture his own within his territory? ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2011, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/960 "2011-03-26T06:41:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Assuming all sanctions on Libya are effectively maintained, and assuming some way is still found to funnel aid to the rebels, how long before Gaddafi simply runs out of ammunition? Does he have any way to manufacture his own within his territory? International arms dealers will make damn sure he has ammo. He just passed out AKs to families . He has lots of guns and ammo. It wont be that easy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=47) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=49)