# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 52
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1021 "2011-03-29T16:40:50Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, that’s just it. If the rebels want to take Sirt and push west, it’s debatable – in fact, it has already become controversial – whether that comes under the “protecting civilians” writ of the UN mandate. They might have to do the rest on their own, with no Coalition/NATO air support beyond what is necessary to keep Gaddafi’s planes and choppers grounded. No more strafing Gaddafi’s tanks and trucks. Gaddafi has it surrounded which means trucks and troops are still in an organized front. A-10’s and gunships are troop support weapons. You do not want to see one on the horizon because then it’s too late to run. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1022 "2011-03-29T16:51:12Z")
Unless you have a Stinger handy. I don’t like the idea of NATO sending in close air support. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1023 "2011-03-29T18:16:34Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Gaddafi has it surrounded which means trucks and troops are still in an organized front. A-10’s and gunships are troop support weapons. You do not want to see one on the horizon because then it’s too late to run. Wait, whose A-10’s and gunships? Do the rebels themselves have an effective force? Because they might have to rely on that. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1024 "2011-03-29T18:25:42Z")
[US gunships blast Gaddafi’s troops](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/29/3176341.htm?section=justin) > [@ABC](#): > > The US has used AC-130 gunships and A-10 Thunderbolt tankbusters against Moamar Gaddafi’s troops in Libya, the Pentagon has confirmed. > … > The AC-130 gunship is a heavily modified Hercules transport plane armed with 20mm, 40mm and 105mm cannons. > > The A-10 is designed for close air support, especially against tanks and armoured vehicles, and carries a multi-barrelled 30mm cannon which can fire nearly 4,000 rounds a minute. > > Unlike the long-range guided missile attacks that have targeted command centres and anti-aircraft defences, both aircraft are designed for close-range assaults against ground troops. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1025 "2011-03-29T18:28:41Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > [US gunships blast Gaddafi’s troops](http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2011/03/29/3176341.htm?section=justin) Yes, yes. The question is, will they be used in the Battle of Sirt? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1026 "2011-03-29T18:34:36Z")
As the linked item suggests, the idea to seems to be to attack regime forces out ahead of the rebels, not in direct support of, or in real coordination with. So I’ll say no. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1027 "2011-03-29T19:00:48Z")
No, I think the idea is to send a message to Ghaddfi’s troops that this isn’t going to be a cake-walk, a well-paid romp over untrained, ill-equipped civilians. You want to die for Ghadaffi? Step right up! ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1028 "2011-03-29T19:03:58Z")
I think I described the tactic and you described the objective. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1029 "2011-03-29T19:09:26Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > There is no “puzzle” here; the embargo is quite unambiguous. Arming any party to the Libyan conflict would violate the embargo, and thus be illegal under the current international legal framework. This may not matter to you, but it would eliminate the current NATO pretext of being in Libya to enforce international law, thus revealing this crusade as nothing more than blatant arrogant imperialism. Moreover, I would argue that any such move would be illegal under the current Security Council Resolution, as increasing the amount of weaponry available in a largely urban civil war would unquestionably pose an increased risk to the civilian population. Nevertheless, [Clinton says last week’s UN resolution overrides the 1973 embargo,](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/arms-libya-rebels) and allows the U.S. to arm the rebels. A case could also be made that taking out Gaddafi is the only way to protect civilians effectively. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1030 "2011-03-29T19:10:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yes, yes. The question is, will they be used in the Battle of Sirt? If Gaddafi’s forces are surrounding the city in an effort to cut off the rebels then they are targetable. The aircraft mentioned were designed for this kind of mission. There are still tanks and guns in play. It’s pointless to send in a barrage of million dollar missiles to do the work of $10,000 worth of ammo and jet fuel. It probably means we have special ops on the ground directing fire. ---
**Author:** ![Linear\_Crack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Linear\_Crack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Linear_Crack)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1031 "2011-03-29T19:26:15Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Gaddafi’s forces are surrounding the city in an effort to cut off the rebels then they are targetable. The aircraft mentioned were designed for this kind of mission. There are still tanks and guns in play. It’s pointless to send in a barrage of million dollar missiles to do the work of $10,000 worth of ammo and jet fuel. > > It probably means we have special ops on the ground directing fire. Well, as long as the special ops troops are wearing sandals, I guess technically there are still no “boots on the ground”. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1032 "2011-03-29T19:34:14Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If Gaddafi’s forces are surrounding the city in an effort to cut off the rebels then they are targetable. No, now Gaddafi’s troops are **defending** a Gaddafi-held city, where, for all we know, the civilian population is actually loyal to him. (I haven’t heard from any journalists reporting out of Sirt about on-the-ground conditions or opinions . . . not surprisingly, at this point.) And the UN resolution does not actually say the international community can help the rebels win this. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1033 "2011-03-29T19:34:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Nevertheless, [Clinton says last week’s UN resolution overrides the 1973 embargo,](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/mar/29/arms-libya-rebels) and allows the U.S. to arm the rebels. I could be wrong, but I believe Clinton is saying February’s UN Resolution 1970 (an arms embargo) is now overridden by March’s UN Resolution 1973, and she claims 1973 has less restrictive arms embargo language. The article doesn’t make this clear, however. > [@](#): > > A case could also be made that taking out Gaddafi is the only way to protect civilians effectively. I agree. Gadhafi and his army are almost inherently a threat to civilians and can be attacked wherever found (until they surrender). Doesn’t matter whether the army is on the offensive or defensive. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1034 "2011-03-29T21:18:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, now Gaddafi’s troops are **defending** a Gaddafi-held city, where, for all we know, the civilian population is actually loyal to him. There are certainly plenty of people opposed to him in those areas too. Known or suspected dissidents have been disappeared in Tripoli. Some apparently reappeared as corpses at staged scenes of civilian airstrike casualties. The rebel leadership, despite growing international recognition, hasn’t been willing to name most of its top officials for fear that Gaddafi would punish their relatives and home towns. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1035 "2011-03-29T21:31:01Z")
Lots of wishful thinking going on. Gadaffy has the best and most arms. He has trained troops . He also has a lot of support om the Libyan people. He gave them AKs. They did not turn on him. They fought on his side. I do not know if his backing will melt away if someone sends in a huge force. But I think without it, Gadaffy wins. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1036 "2011-03-29T21:31:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > There are certainly plenty of people opposed to him in those areas too. Known or suspected dissidents have been disappeared in Tripoli. Some apparently reappeared as corpses at staged scenes of civilian airstrike casualties. The rebel leadership, despite growing international recognition, hasn’t been willing to name most of its top officials for fear that Gaddafi would punish their relatives and home towns. Towns? I mean, that’s like if the Allies had bombed Linz because Hitler was born there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1037 "2011-03-29T22:28:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Maybe he’s [in Libya](http://boardstest.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=598434). Hope he stays safe. And reports back to us! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2011, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1038 "2011-03-29T22:33:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Towns? Yes. Who can say how credible the idea is, but I heard a rebel spokesman say that in an Al Jazeera interview several days ago. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1039 "2011-03-30T00:15:45Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > There are certainly plenty of people opposed to him in those areas too. Certainly there are. There are just as certainly people who support him in the rebel-controlled areas, some of whom are also no longer with us. Sirte appears to be more of a loyalist city than not. You know, I don’t know where we get this idea that Libya’s population is some monolithic bloc panting at the bit for us to come in and relieve them from the dictator. That’s what we expected in Iraq, and it was no more true there than it is in Libya. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2011, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1040 "2011-03-30T00:18:29Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > Yes. Who can say how credible the idea is, but I heard a rebel spokesman say that in an Al Jazeera interview several days ago. Just as credible as the concept that Qaddaffi was going to massacre the entire population of Benghazi, which also came from a rebel spokesman. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=51) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=53)