# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 54
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1061 "2011-03-31T21:11:53Z")
CNN journalist reporting from Misrata says the rebels are improvising weapons to counter Gaddafi’s technical superiority – e.g., laying oil-soaked carpets on the streets to set tanks on fire. It’s like a Disney movie, only bloodier and burnier and screamier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1062 "2011-03-31T22:15:08Z")
Moussa Koussa. Sounds like something Jar-Jar Binks would say. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1063 "2011-03-31T22:30:24Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Not really. It just means they take instructions from the operatives who are on the ground. All they need to know is where not to be when gunships are brought in. Every time Gaddafi moves a column of people/equipment NATO moves in. No, they need discipline, and at least basic training. It’s been discussed, they don’t protect their flanks, they don’t know anything about formations or deployment. They don’t know anything without being told and I doubt there are enough experienced noncoms to tell them all. And they drive to the front in their own cars. The problem here is that, while Gaddafi (after his humiliating wars with Chad) did not want the military to become a viable rival for power, so he allowed it to decay, and his soldiers are not very good soldiers, they are definitely soldiers, in the sense that _Plan 9 From Outer Space_ is definitely a motion picture. (The rebels are . . . more like the home movie your Cub Scout pack once made.) They have military training and experience, and some (the Chad veterans, and the mercenaries, at least) have combat experience. Just saw a rebel general interviewed on CNN. He answered the question of whether the troops need training by saying that there are two groups, the “Free Libyan Army” and the “Free Libyan Volunteers,” and, yes, the Volunteers do need training. He said nothing (and was asked nothing, in the footage shown) about the numbers of either. Presumably the “Army” would be members of the Libyan Armed Forces who have joined the rebels. The (very sparse) Wiki article on the [Libyan People’s Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_People%27s_Army) mentions no organizational divisions between civilian volunteers and pre-rebellion soldiers – and mentions that no reliable estimates exist of the LPA’s numbers. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1064 "2011-03-31T22:37:50Z")
Obama made a mistake going in. Once in, he can not afford to lose. If the rebels continue to get whipped can Obama walk? . Obama’s position is ugly. Can he just say forget about it, they can not win. Or does he have to make sure America does not appear to lose again? Then he may be in for a lot more. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1065 "2011-03-31T23:18:44Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Moussa Koussa. Sounds like something Jar-Jar Binks would say. I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that every fucking time I hear that name. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1066 "2011-03-31T23:32:25Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Moussa Koussa. Sounds like something Jar-Jar Binks would say. “Monsters out there, leaking in here. Weesa all sinking and no power. Whena yousa thinking we are in trouble?” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1067 "2011-03-31T23:36:37Z")
I was thinking it sounded like a cutesy name for ladyparts. Of course, I think about ladyparts a whole lot more than _Star Wars_. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1068 "2011-04-01T00:04:12Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > And see what he’s doing after just a week on the job: [Rebels say Qatar ready to market east Libyan oil](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/27/us-libya-rebels-oil-idUSTRE72Q1ON20110327) Tarhouni is on CNN right now. He says Moussa Koussa’s defection is a really big deal and welcome, but he’ll have no place in a provisional government, not a chance, and he should be investigated by the ICC. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1069 "2011-04-01T02:23:19Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > No, they need discipline, and at least basic training. It’s been discussed, they don’t protect their flanks, they don’t know anything about formations or deployment. They don’t know anything without being told and I doubt there are enough experienced noncoms to tell them all. And they drive to the front in their own cars. > > The problem here is that, while Gaddafi (after his humiliating wars with Chad) did not want the military to become a viable rival for power, so he allowed it to decay, and his soldiers are not very good soldiers, they are definitely soldiers, in the sense that _Plan 9 From Outer Space_ is definitely a motion picture. (The rebels are . . . more like the home movie your Cub Scout pack once made.) They have military training and experience, and some (the Chad veterans, and the mercenaries, at least) have combat experience. > > Just saw a rebel general interviewed on CNN. He answered the question of whether the troops need training by saying that there are two groups, the “Free Libyan Army” and the “Free Libyan Volunteers,” and, yes, the Volunteers do need training. He said nothing (and was asked nothing, in the footage shown) about the numbers of either. Presumably the “Army” would be members of the Libyan Armed Forces who have joined the rebels. The (very sparse) Wiki article on the [Libyan People’s Army](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libyan_People%27s_Army) mentions no organizational divisions between civilian volunteers and pre-rebellion soldiers – and mentions that no reliable estimates exist of the LPA’s numbers. I’m going to disagree with you on this. As you said, his troops are not well trained. It’s driven home by the reality that Gaddafi is hiring mercenaries. He’s losing key loyal members. The current situation is that NATO owns the sky. That means any piece of military equipment bigger than a moped exists at the discretion of NATO. If it’s out in the open and someone in NATO says it needs to go away then it goes away. There is no air support to protect it. We certainly have ground operations in place to “direct traffic”. All that is required is accurate information of the location of targetable objects. When all the machinery of war is removed what is left is a group of motivated citizens fighting a demoralized group of mercenaries who will weigh their wages against the likelihood of death. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1070 "2011-04-01T02:34:04Z")
Boy are you dreaming. Gadaffy’s troops are fighting hard. They are taking the fight to the rebels and gaining land, once lost. It is clear that his better trained and equipped troops will win without outside influences. If you are counting on Gadaffy’s troops to run off or his people to turn on him, you will be disappointed. That is why the no fly zone is not working. If his troops loyalty was tenuous, they would have left long ago. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1071 "2011-04-01T02:36:28Z")
Just heard on CNN that [Iman al-Obeidi](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Obeidi) (the woman who ran into a Tripoli hotel lobby, shouted in front of foreign journalists that she had been raped multiple times by Gaddafi’s troops, and has not been heard from since) has been married, by proxy, in a public ceremony. This is supposed to preserve her honor. Apparently it is politically significant that she is being “married” to a man of her own tribe – that means the tribe stands behind her, which means it stands against Gaddafi. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1072 "2011-04-01T02:45:41Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Boy are you dreaming. Gadaffy’s troops are fighting hard. They are taking the fight to the rebels and gaining land, once lost. It is clear that his better trained and equipped troops will win without outside influences. If you are counting on Gadaffy’s troops to run off or his people to turn on him, you will be disappointed. That is why the no fly zone is not working. > If his troops loyalty was tenuous, they would have left long ago. They still have the edge with equipment. When that is gone they will do what they’ve already done and [abandon their uniforms in retreat.](http://http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/962282--airstrikes-force-gadhafi-retreat-rebels-clinch-hold-on-east-with-fall-of-ajdabiya) Every day another high ranking rat deserts the ship. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1073 "2011-04-01T04:08:27Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Boy are you dreaming. Gadaffy’s troops are fighting hard. They are taking the fight to the rebels and gaining land, once lost. Reminds me of Rommell and the British forces going back and forth, each gaining and losing land. And in this same location! Those WWII battles seemed to be basically supply-chain controlled – whichever army conquered territory and got extended out too far in front of their supply-chain eventually began to lose battles and was pushed back. It was finally won by the British when they managed to build up enough supplies in Egypt to sustain a push all the way, and at the same time British ships/subs in the Mediterranean stopped enough German supplies to restrict Rommell’s advances. So the embargo on war materials to Libya may be the deciding factor. Or possibly, which side finds a way around the embargo first. ---
**Author:** ![Claverhouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/13edae/32.png) [@Claverhouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claverhouse)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1074 "2011-04-01T04:58:21Z")
Although Gaddafi’s army is pretty small ( 50k + 50k conscripts + assorted mercenaries - deserters ) and not of great quality, he does retain billions of dollars to hire more mercs, such as the 50k from Africa allegedly brokered by Israeli agents: whether they get there and what difference they could make is debatable. The rebels though also have sources of income, quite apart from putative sales of oil in the future or goods supplied by the countries opposed to the dictator. Whilst obviously one of the reasons the rebels hate him is because they think he is jewish ( either his mother, or more likely his grandmother, was supposed to be jewish ), this has been aggravated by some weapons caches captured by them from his forces. In one case the rebels have declared that some were supplied by Israel ( which, although weapons are as fungible as oil to people wanting weapons, is not good form for an Islamic state ) _The Qatari news network Al Jazeera reported on Thursday that opposition forces in the Libyan city of Misrata displayed weapons that they claim originated in Israel. The weapons were allegedly siezed from the forces supporting Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. The opposition leaders alleged that some of the confiscated rockets and bombs had Stars of David imprinted on them. The photographs that were broadcast during the report showed different explosive devices, but no Israeli symbols or serial numbers were discernable._ **[YNet](http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4050628,00.html)** ( Israeli ) In the other, the rebels found nerve gas & mustard gas shells which they sold to Hamas and Hizbollah through the good graces of Iran, which apparently joined against Gaddafi in order to reap the spoils of war. \*According to our sources, the rebels offloaded at least 2,000 artillery shells carrying mustard gas and 1,200 nerve gas shells for cash payment amounting to several million dollars. US and Israeli intelligence agencies have tracked the WMD consignments from eastern Libya as far as Sudan in convoys secured by Iranian agents and Hizballah and Hamas guards. They are not believed to have reached their destinations in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip, apparently waiting for an opportunity to get their deadly freights through without the US or Israel attacking and destroying them. \* \*It is also not clear whether the shells and gases were assembled upon delivery or were travelling in separate containers. Our sources report that some of the poison gas may be intended not only for artillery use but also for drones which Hizballah recently acquired from Iran. Tehran threw its support behind the anti-Qaddafi rebels because of this unique opportunity to get hold of the Libyan ruler’s stock of poison gas after it fell into opposition hands and arm Hizballah and Hamas with unconventional weapons without Iran being implicated in the transaction. \* … _The rebels threw in a quantity of various types of anti-air missiles._ **[DEBKA](http://israelstreams.com/i.html?http://debka.com/article/20811/)** ( Israeli ) ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1075 "2011-04-01T05:05:25Z")
Debka is not generally considered a reliable source. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1076 "2011-04-01T12:41:39Z")
Well, let’s just hope that “our” side in this fight doesn’t start using chemical weapons. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1077 "2011-04-01T14:08:05Z")
[More of Gaddafi’s inner-circle officials defect.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/03/20113312103411544.html) “It is understood a group of top officials who had headed to Tunisia for talks have decided to stay there.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1078 "2011-04-01T15:35:11Z")
[Rebels offer ceasefire if Gaddafi halts attacks on rebel-held cities.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/04/201141134110527219.html) “So [_writhes on the ground_ _spits out tooth_], ya had enough?!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1079 "2011-04-01T16:54:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, let’s just hope that “our” side in this fight doesn’t start using chemical weapons. Especially not in an urban-combat civil war where you can’t avoid gassing the civilians you’re fighting to liberate. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 1, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1080 "2011-04-01T17:13:43Z")
[quote] ``` The BBC's Nick Springate reports from Libya's eastern town of Brega that for the first time, rag-tag rebel forces have been bolstered by a number of well-armed, seemingly well-trained soldiers in full military attire. It's not clear where they've come from, our correspondent says, but their very presence has boosted morale on the front line. " ``` … Our correspondent says the rebels are now starting a major onslaught on Brega, having given a boisterous reception to two key rebel figures - the former interior minister and the former head of the armed forces. Brega’s significance is as one of the major oil towns on the route to Col Gaddafi’s birthplace of Sirte, our correspondent adds. [quote] Well, this is interestin. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=53) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=55)