# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1101 "2011-04-02T21:57:16Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I wonder if Libya’s example is going to encourage or discourage dissidents elsewhere in the MENA? Huh? They were about the last country in MENA to get their revolt going. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1102 "2011-04-02T21:58:45Z")
Crusaders? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1103 "2011-04-02T22:26:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Huh? They were about the last country in MENA to get their revolt going. Yes, but it it is still ongoing, as it were, everywhere but Tunisia and Egypt. Protesters still have to think, and still have the chance to think, about how far they want to push it. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1104 "2011-04-02T22:34:49Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > I have been resisting the calls to have you banned as a troll, but this sort of BBQ Pit rant is not helping your case. The next time you post one of these _Pravda_-like screeds, you will be Warned. Stick to a genuine discussion or get out. > > [/Moderating] Could you clarify as to what your issue with my post is? I discussed facts, posted an article setting forth said facts, and then gave my opinion thereof. Which of these is not allowed in Great Debates? I notice that you are not taking issue with the posters espousing support for the rebels; is there anything to this but viewpoint bias? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1105 "2011-04-02T22:48:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Crusaders? The politics is a cover for a Christian plot to recover the Holy Sepulcher of . . . ermm . . . Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1106 "2011-04-02T23:04:00Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Huh? They were about the last country in MENA to get their revolt going. There seems to be a problem with [Syria](http://www.npr.org/2011/04/02/135052405/unrest-in-syria-raises-alarm-in-washington&sc=nl&cc=nh-20110402), and henceforth Lebanon and Iran. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1107 "2011-04-02T23:30:46Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Crusaders? I would say so, yes. Having observed the West’s behavior for several decades now, I would argue that it clearly demonstrates an irrational obsessive hostility towards all things Arab and Muslim. While the West has general imperialistic tendencies, they tend to be far more pronounced when it comes to the Arab world. For example, notice how the West rushed into Libya at the drop of a hat. Why? Purportedly to stop a civil war. Meanwhile, in Ivory Coast, a longer-running civil war has killed thousands of people and displaced over a million civilians. Has the West interfered? Nope, and it’s not going to. Extrapolate such situations over years and decades, and you can easily reach the conclusion that, unfortunately for all concerned, Christendom has not yet outgrown its bloodthirsty crusading mindset. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1108 "2011-04-02T23:45:48Z")
You never proved your supposed case that the west is imperialistic. The rest of your post above conveniently ignores other facts. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1109 "2011-04-03T00:49:25Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The message to Libyans is clear: “We’re bringing freedom to your doorstep! Unfortunately, you will probably need to die in the process.” It has been reported that every male adult of fighting age in As Zawiyah has been vanished by Gadaffi forces. They have not been seen in more than a week. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1110 "2011-04-03T01:14:51Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It has been reported that every male adult of fighting age in As Zawiyah has been vanished by Gadaffi forces. They have not been seen in more than a week. Reported where? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1111 "2011-04-03T02:09:34Z")
[http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058550,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2058550,00.html) Various places. Reporters have noted the city was ‘unusually empty’. > **[Zawiya town centre devastated and almost deserted](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/mar/10/zawiya-town-itv-regime-battle)** > > ITV News's Bill Neely describes the damage to the Libyan town, now back in the hands of the regime after a furious battle Ah, the Guardian has good coverage. They’re reputable. And it’s much more than a week. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1112 "2011-04-03T03:22:02Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Could you clarify as to what your issue with my post is? I discussed facts, posted an article setting forth said facts, and then gave my opinion thereof. Which of these is not allowed in Great Debates? I notice that you are not taking issue with the posters espousing support for the rebels; is there anything to this but viewpoint bias? No. You posted a rant. The children died when a Qadhafi column was blown up, the parents expressing no anger on the grounds that the tanks in the column were clearly going to massacre people at their destination. The rebel column was hit when they fired an anti-aircraft gun and coalition aircraft responded. In each case, the result was a tragic accident that you mischaracterized as either deliberate or careless disregard while using inflammatory rhetoric intended to troll the thread. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1113 "2011-04-03T04:05:10Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Huh? They were about the last country in MENA to get their revolt going. I would expect Saudi Arabia to be _the_ last one myself. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1114 "2011-04-03T04:09:50Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > No. You posted a rant. Regardless of what term you choose to use, I posted an editorialized take on current events - the same thing that is seen hundreds of times a day on this board. I still see no other possible explanation for singling me out other than your personal displeasure with my political views. > [@](#): > > The children died when a Qadhafi column was blown up, the parents expressing no anger on the grounds that the tanks in the column were clearly going to massacre people at their destination. Do you have a cite for that? Were the parents actually interviewed and happily dismissed the killing of their children? Or are you simply assuming that is how they feel? This is one of the most incredibly callous statements I have read in a very long time. > [@](#): > > In each case, the result was a tragic accident that you mischaracterized as either deliberate or careless disregard while using inflammatory rhetoric intended to troll the thread. > > [/Modding] Even if we take the self-serving excuses of the NATO command as gospel, I submit that blowing up ammunition trucks in the middle of civilian areas and then pretending to be shocked when civilians die does, in fact, qualify as “careless disregard” for human life. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1115 "2011-04-03T04:14:11Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? Comedy gold. Readers will note that the cite for that was posted by Commissar. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1116 "2011-04-03T04:16:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Comedy gold. > Readers will note that the cite for that was posted by Commissar. Oops. :smack: You’re right for a change. EDIT: But the whole pretending to speak to the audience when you want to address me thing is getting kind of old. What is this, kindergarten? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1117 "2011-04-03T04:31:22Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > EDIT: But the whole pretending to speak to the audience when you want to address me thing is getting kind of old. What is this, kindergarten? Please, No. This is a discussion board – everything posted here should be for the whole audience to read and discuss. There is a facility here (see Private Messages) if you two want to communicate directly just with each other. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1118 "2011-04-03T04:40:47Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > There is a facility here (see Private Messages) if you two want to communicate directly Oh Great Cthulu no, that’s why God invented the Pit. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1119 "2011-04-03T05:20:37Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Please, No. > > This is a discussion board – everything posted here should be for the whole audience to read and discuss. There is a facility here (see Private Messages) if you two want to communicate directly just with each other. Er… I think you may have missed the point. I simply find it strange that **FinnAgain** feels it absolutely necessary to begin every single response to me with some variation of “Readers should note that [response.]” But anyway, let’s get back to discussing Libya before I get singled out for taking part in this tangential conversation. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1120 "2011-04-03T12:54:25Z")
[http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576237042432212406.html](http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703712504576237042432212406.html) > [@](#): > > Two former Afghan Mujahedeen and a six-year detainee at Guantanamo Bay have stepped to the fore of this city’s military campaign, training new recruits for the front and to protect the city from infiltrators loyal to Col. Moammar Gadhafi. > … > Among his followers, Mr. Hasady has the reputation of a trained warrior who stood fearlessly at the front ranks of young protesters during the first days of the uprising. > And his discourse has become dramatically more pro-American, now that he stands in alliance with the West in a battle against Col. Gadhafi. > “Our view is starting to change of the U.S.,” said Mr. Hasady. “If we hated the Americans 100%, today it is less than 50%. They have started to redeem themselves for their past mistakes by helping us to preserve the blood of our children.” > Mr. Hasady also offered a reconsideration of his past approach. “No Islamist revolution has ever succeeded. Only when the whole population was included did we succeed, and that means a more inclusive ideology.” And this is how we defeat Al Qaeda. [http://www.hudson-ny.org/2000/gaddafi-mercenaries-in-libya](http://www.hudson-ny.org/2000/gaddafi-mercenaries-in-libya) > [@](#): > > UNICEF spokeswoman Marixie Mercado told the Associated Press that there is “a serious concern” that child soldiers are among the mercenaries that Gaddafi is hiring to attack rebel forces. > **[Libya: claims of rape, murder and kidnap as vengeful Gaddafi troops renew...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8423934/Libya-claims-of-rape-murder-and-kidnap-as-vengeful-Gaddafi-troops-renew-assault-on-rebel-held-Misrata.html)** > > Troops loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi have renewed their assault on Misrata in a final push to crush rebel fighters and civilians who rose up against him six weeks ago > [@](#): > > Libyan army forces unleashed a remorseless barrage of tank fire and artillery shells yesterday amid fresh reports from residents that soldiers are indiscriminately killing and kidnapping men and raping women as they forced their way, house by house, towards the centre. > **[GCC may consider severing Iran ties](https://gulfnews.com/world/gulf/kuwait/gcc-may-consider-severing-iran-ties-1.786718)** > > ‘Significant steps' being hammered out > [@](#): > > The Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) states could sever their diplomatic relations with Iran, a Kuwaiti daily report said on Saturday citing diplomatic sources. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=57)