# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 57
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1121 "2011-04-03T13:13:24Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I simply find it strange that **FinnAgain** feels it absolutely necessary to begin every single response to me with some variation of “Readers should note that [response.]” Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but didn’t you start that? ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1122 "2011-04-03T15:43:34Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Forgive me if I’m mistaken, but didn’t you start that? Actually, no. Finn has been doing it ever since he told another poster that he refuses to communicate with me outside of the Pit. The problem is that he can’t actually seem to restrain himself; hence the “readers will note” charade. :rolleyes: I’ve done this one or two times when responding to him as a gentle jape at his approach. It went over his head, so I dropped it and went back to direct responses. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1123 "2011-04-03T18:27:38Z")
Word is Gaddafi is paying [$2,500 a day for supporters](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/social/Koolmorning/gaddafi-oil-libya-news_n_833544_80099145.html). Bring a backpack and sleep under bridges at night. It’s pure profit. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1124 "2011-04-03T18:58:40Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Actually, no. Finn has been doing it Then while I disagree with many of your opinions, I beg your pardon. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1125 "2011-04-03T22:44:16Z")
**carnivorousplant** : I’d hold out for some proof before doing that, not that you’ll actually get such. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1126 "2011-04-03T23:03:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **carnivorousplant** : I’d hold out for some proof before doing that, not that you’ll actually get such. Yep. For instance, “Finn has been doing it ever since he told another poster that he refuses to communicate with me outside of the Pit.” is fictional. Of course, I don’t feel any particular need to engage in conversation [under certain circumstances](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=598262&highlight=commissar) and will happily point out factual errors with that being the extent of it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1127 "2011-04-03T23:24:17Z")
[A Libyan (Gaddafi’s government) official is in Greece (with which Libya has close ties) for a talk with PM Papandreou.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/04/201143154928842116.html) Apparently Tripoli wants to end the fighting, but no more details are available. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1128 "2011-04-03T23:43:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **carnivorousplant** : I’d hold out for some proof before doing that, not that you’ll actually get such. Dammit, now I have to read the thread over again. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1129 "2011-04-03T23:55:15Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Dammit, now I have to read the thread over again. I am reasonably certain that qualifies as cruel and unusual punishment in the US and/or war crimes under international law. Please, think of the children. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1130 "2011-04-04T04:31:56Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > Dammit, now I have to read the thread over again. > > 🙂 I’ll save you the trouble. Approximately 500 posts back in this very thread… [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13560196&postcount=629](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13560196&postcount=629) If you skip forward from there, you’ll notice that he keeps responding to me (usually with direct quotes), but tries to mask this by starting each post with “Readers will note” or “Those reading along will notice” or other such silly verbiage. Yeah, we totally fail to see what you’re doing there, Finn. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1131 "2011-04-04T09:15:47Z")
> [@Ibn Warraq](#): > > Why are people arguing with Commissar? > [@FinnAgain](#): > > Oh, I’m not. Or at least I don’t mean to. The only place I’ll respond directly to him is in the Pit. Here I’ve just been pointing out his factual errors and/or letting those reading along know about his curiously malleable set of double standards and interesting contradictions that always seem to pop up on certain topics. Finn is not arguing with Commissar. Finn is, however, not doing what Commissar says. Commissar says Finn is not communicating with him. This is clearly untrue. Commissar, this thread is not about you. Sucks to be you. [https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/04/world/africa/04libya.html?\_r=1&hp](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/04/world/africa/04libya.html?_r=1&hp) > [@NYTimes](#): > > At least two sons of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi are proposing a resolution to the Libyan conflict that would entail pushing their father aside to make way for a transition to a constitutional democracy under the direction of his son Seif al-Islam el-Qaddafi, a diplomat and a Libyan official briefed on the plan said Sunday. Well, yes. Clearly, we should give Mummar’s sons control over Libya. It’s their country. They own it. No, I don’t think that’s going to be very acceptable at all. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1132 "2011-04-04T13:04:10Z")
Indeed. GD is the appropriate forum for posting factual refutations and showing errors in logic, and it doesn’t necessitate a back-and-forth dialogue with someone once their claims are refuted. But such is life. Anyways, the Times article offers an interesting window into the country’s ruling elite, but it’s highly doubtful that the rest of the world will stand by and allow a Quadaffi dynasty to take over while leading a ‘democratic’ nation. Reforms might have had a chance to work months ago, but there’s been too much blood spilled for Quadaffi’s sons to take over while promising change that you can bank on. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1133 "2011-04-04T14:32:17Z")
I’ve just returned from Libya, having managed to deliver medical aid and equipment to Benghazi which is now being used to treat casualties in Misrata. But we’ve lost family in the fighting - after I reached Benghazi I had to make my way to Ajdabiya and got as far as Brega before being forced to turn back, but I was able to find the rest of the family and verify they were ok. I still have a lot of things to get my head around and haven’t yet processed all I’ve seen and heard, so it will take me a while to sort that all out in my head. Some of it will be hard to deal with, but it’s good to be back again with a real bed at night and a regular routine to focus on for a while. The Libyan people have been through hell and are still suffering unimaginable agonies, but I have absolutely no doubt that they will win in near future, put down Gaddaffi like the rabid animal he is, and start rebuilding their country into the nation they have bled and died for. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1134 "2011-04-04T16:20:50Z")
Wow, **Bibliovore**! Glad to know you’re back safe, and congratulations on a successful mission! I’m sure many here are _very_ interested to hear as much of the story as you can tell, when you’re able. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1135 "2011-04-04T17:38:23Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > I’ve just returned from Libya, having managed to deliver medical aid and equipment to Benghazi which is now being used to treat casualties in Misrata. But we’ve lost family in the fighting - after I reached Benghazi I had to make my way to Ajdabiya and got as far as Brega before being forced to turn back, but I was able to find the rest of the family and verify they were ok. > > I still have a lot of things to get my head around and haven’t yet processed all I’ve seen and heard, so it will take me a while to sort that all out in my head. Some of it will be hard to deal with, but it’s good to be back again with a real bed at night and a regular routine to focus on for a while. > > The Libyan people have been through hell and are still suffering unimaginable agonies, but I have absolutely no doubt that they will win in near future, put down Gaddaffi like the rabid animal he is, and start rebuilding their country into the nation they have bled and died for. Sorry for your loss. I have no doubt the Libyan people will treasure their freedom all the more dearly, for having won it at such dear cost. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1136 "2011-04-04T19:03:30Z")
Welcome back. How can we help? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1137 "2011-04-04T21:45:08Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Welcome back. How can we help? Just send all your money to me. I’ll make sure the Libyans get it. Eventually. (Money, you know, it circulates.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2011, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1138 "2011-04-04T21:53:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [A Libyan (Gaddafi’s government) official is in Greece (with which Libya has close ties) for a talk with PM Papandreou.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/04/201143154928842116.html) Apparently Tripoli wants to end the fighting, but no more details are available. [And now the official has moved on to Turkey.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2011/04/201144103344723978.html) > [@](#): > > The Libyan deputy foreign minister has arrived in the Turkish capital, Ankara, in a bid to help negotiate a ceasefire with opposition forces in the North African nation, a day after he visited Greece on a similar mission. > > Abdel Ati al-Obeidi and his Turkish counterpart Ahmet Davutoglu were to look at common ground between forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan leader, and the opposition National Council, officials said. > > “We will do our best so that the suffering in Libya comes to an end in the shortest possible time and that a roadmap is outlined in a way that would include political changes in line with the demands of the Libyan people,” Davutoglu said ahead of Monday’s meeting. > > After their talks, Turkey’s NTV television cited al-Obeidi as telling Davutoglu that the Libyan government wants to see a quick end to the fighting. No further details on the talks were announced. Seems to me the only “common ground” there is the country the two sides are fighting over. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1139 "2011-04-05T09:19:37Z")
Here’s a (very) brief outline of the trip: [ul] Flew into Cairo. Spent a day sourcing medical aid and necessary funds and arranging transportation.[/ul] [ul]Next day, drove north for 8 hours from Cairo to Marsa Matrouh on coast.[/ul] [ul]Following day drove from Marsa Matrouh to As-Salloum land port on border with Egypt, then crossed into Libya.[/ul] [ul]On Libyan side of border, met up with Libyan contact with weapons, then drove to Tobruk.[/ul] [ul]At Tobruk, changed direction, veering off coastal road to more direct desert road, cutting straight through to Benghazi.[/ul] [ul]On arrival at Benghazi, proceeded directly to main hospital to deliver medical aid, then began searching for family.[/ul] [ul]Managed to contact various family in Benghazi and gather information about last know whereabouts of remaining family.[/ul] [ul]Proceeded to Ajdabiya, then to Brega to find remaining family before being forced to turn back.[/ul] [ul]Eventually returned to Beghazi, then back to Egyptian border via desert route and Tobruk again.[/ul] Apart from family killed at Brega, everyone else on the Eastern side of the country is safe for now. Unfortunately I also have family trapped in Tripoli, and there is simply no way to reach them or get them out at the moment without crossing the front line of the fighting. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2011, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1140 "2011-04-05T15:50:46Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Here’s a (very) brief outline of the trip: > > [ul] > Flew into Cairo. Spent a day sourcing medical aid and necessary funds and arranging transportation.[/ul] > [ul]Next day, drove north for 8 hours from Cairo to Marsa Matrouh on coast.[/ul] > [ul]Following day drove from Marsa Matrouh to As-Salloum land port on border with Egypt, then crossed into Libya.[/ul] > [ul]On Libyan side of border, met up with Libyan contact with weapons, then drove to Tobruk.[/ul] > [ul]At Tobruk, changed direction, veering off coastal road to more direct desert road, cutting straight through to Benghazi.[/ul] > [ul]On arrival at Benghazi, proceeded directly to main hospital to deliver medical aid, then began searching for family.[/ul] > [ul]Managed to contact various family in Benghazi and gather information about last know whereabouts of remaining family.[/ul] > [ul]Proceeded to Ajdabiya, then to Brega to find remaining family before being forced to turn back.[/ul] > [ul]Eventually returned to Beghazi, then back to Egyptian border via desert route and Tobruk again.[/ul] > > Apart from family killed at Brega, everyone else on the Eastern side of the country is safe for now. Unfortunately I also have family trapped in Tripoli, and there is simply no way to reach them or get them out at the moment without crossing the front line of the fighting. Best wishes for your family in Tripoli, they should just stay inside as much as they can until this is over. Tell us, please, what is the general mood in the rebel-held parts of Libya? Do they really think they can beat Gaddafi’s regulars with civilian volunteers? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=56) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=58)