# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/101 "2011-02-21T18:35:17Z")
The Libyan embassy in London has taken down the rather dull all-green flag, and replaced it with the old one. (from Channel 4 anchor Krishnan Guru-Murthy). ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/102 "2011-02-21T18:38:03Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > Switzerland. They’ll take anybody with a lot of cash. And I’m assuming he already has a fair amount stashed in an account there. [Libya and Switzerland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland-Libya_conflict) are not on the best terms at the moment. [QUOTE=Xema] For values of “best” that include “prison”. [/QUOTE] I admire his economic agenda - he has started over 100,000 cooperatives and redirects a large portion of the oil revenues into economic development projects, and has had real success in lowering poverty and encouraging endogenous growth, but his political means of doing so leave a lot to be desired. I still consider him an improvement over the previous oligarchs. Final judgment is reserved for when, and how, he leaves office. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/103 "2011-02-21T18:46:40Z")
Foreign Secretary William Hague says that Gadaffi may already have fled to Venezuala. > **['I'll die here as a martyr': Defiant Gaddafi blames world leaders for...](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1358972/Libya-protests-Gaddafis-rambling-TV-address-Ill-die-martyr.html)** > > Libyan leader attacked the international community and said he has no plans to step down after hundreds were killed when his supporters opened fire on protesters. There are also some great pics at that link. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/104 "2011-02-21T18:48:51Z")
oh god oh god oh god they’re bombing Tripoli. Bombs, autocannon fire, helicopters and jets. fleets of cars full of mercenaries with AKs roaming and shooting everything they see. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/105 "2011-02-21T18:52:27Z")
Mercenaries killing people in homes and doctors in hospitals, not just protesters. ---
**Author:** ![Agnostic\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c4cdca/32.png) [@Agnostic\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agnostic_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/106 "2011-02-21T18:53:18Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > Interesting link. Thanks. Your welcome. I still can’t find data on how large those tribes are, but considering over 80% of the country lives in the coastal cities, and the whole population is only about 6-7 million, they cannot be that many. I would love to know what percentage of the military they control. And seeing pilots defect is a _huge_ sign of the regime falling apart. According to the article, the air force is base of Gaddafi’s tribe and is who put down the last coup attempt. If he loses control of them, I’d say game over. [QUOTE=davidm] There are also some great pics at that link. [/QUOTE] The pic of the girl is awesome - that should be on the cover of every news magazine! ---
**Author:** ![Patch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a183cd/32.png) [@Patch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patch)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/107 "2011-02-21T18:55:06Z")
> [@Tristan](#): > > Wow. Al Jazeera (which you can watch streaming online, so happy to be living in the future) has reports of Libyan Fighters straffing crowds of protesters. Which sounded so extreme that I was willing to discount it as hysteria. > > But now 2 colonels have landed Libyan jets in Malta, stating they have defected rather than follow their orders and fire on citizens in the streets. > > Wow. **Fighters** strafing crowds? :eek: ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/108 "2011-02-21T18:57:55Z")
African mercenaries in Tripoli. [http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183357\_10150106919424216\_593284215\_6122766\_5504251\_n.jpg](http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183357_10150106919424216_593284215_6122766_5504251_n.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/109 "2011-02-21T18:59:13Z")
> [@Agnostic\_Pagan](#): > > [Libya and Switzerland](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland-Libya_conflict) are not on the best terms at the moment. > > I admire his economic agenda - he has started over 100,000 cooperatives and redirects a large portion of the oil revenues into economic development projects, and has had real success in lowering poverty and encouraging endogenous growth, but his political means of doing so leave a lot to be desired. I still consider him an improvement over the previous oligarchs. Final judgment is reserved for when, and how, he leaves office. It has to be pointed out that the people of Venezuela rioted like the people of the middle east, and it was to demand the overthrow of the rightists that organized a coup to remove Chavez who was elected. The coup plotters were captured and Chavez reinstated. (It was a shock to the corporate media in the USA that attempted to follow the line that the coup was the popular uprising) There was a good number of Venezuelans that did not support Chavez who joined the riots as supporting democracy was more important than supporting the return of the old fashion right wing military dictatorships. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/110 "2011-02-21T19:06:13Z")
Libyan state television is confirming Venezuela. Not just fighters, helicopters too. There was video. it was ugly. It got taken down. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/111 "2011-02-21T19:08:53Z")
> [@Patch](#): > > **Fighters** strafing crowds? :eek: That is grounds for crimes against humanity trials that should follow. I think this time all nations should support an intervention by the UN, and/or the Arab league, and considering that there is the need for the [del]spice[/del] oil to continue to flow, this would have a good chance of happening. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/112 "2011-02-21T19:09:35Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > It has been announced that two Libyan choppers and two military aircrafts have landed in Malta. No more informations at the moment. It could be defectors or officials fleeing. Apparently, the helicopters were carrying civilians, and the two fighters’ pilots were deserters. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/113 "2011-02-21T19:12:33Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Libyan state television is confirming Venezuela. Not just fighters, helicopters too. There was video. it was ugly. It got taken down. What are they confirming about Venezuela? In any case, I’m not inclined to believe Libyan state television at the moment. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/114 "2011-02-21T19:16:30Z")
BBC was just reporting the Ban Ki Moon spoke to Gaddafi in Libya, so the Veneuela thing has to be fake. Anyway, unless he teleported to Latin America he can’t be there, I mean come on. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/115 "2011-02-21T19:19:18Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Libyan state television is confirming Venezuela. I only see reports that weasel out with “may”, “possibly” or could" Even so, exile would be a good move to defuse the situation, but it seems to be just wishful thinking at this time. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/116 "2011-02-21T19:19:50Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > African mercenaries in Tripoli. > > [http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183357\_10150106919424216\_593284215\_6122766\_5504251\_n.jpg](http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183357_10150106919424216_593284215_6122766_5504251_n.jpg) **Libyans ARE Africans** and there are a significant number of Black Libyans. I recall it was quite the scandal in West Africa when the Libyans had in [2000 pogroms against Blacks.](http://www.theperspective.org/oneafrica.html) - including black Libyans. Just because Libyan Arabs are horrible racists doesn’t mean we have to buy in. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/117 "2011-02-21T19:22:01Z")
[CNN](http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/21/live-blogging-north-africa-middle-east-protests/?hpt=T1) article seems to indicate Gaddafi is still in Libya. I would doubt that he’s fled already in any case…seems too early to decide that the situation is unrecoverable. > [@](#): > > Noon - British Foreign Secretary William Hague told Reuters that Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi may be on his way to Venezuela. CNN has not confirmed. Gadhafi has maintained power in the country for 42 years. About a half hour later, the Libyan Ambassador to the UK Omar Jelban denies that Gadhafi is on his way to Venezuela. > > 11:45 a.m. ET - The government is demanding that citizens cooperate with security forces, and warning “organized gangs,” Libyan state television reported, as security forces conduct raids on what it called “nests of terror and sabotage.” Justice minister, Mustafa Abdul Jalil, has resigned to protest the “bloody situation and use of excessive force” against protesters by security forces, a Libyan newspaper reports. Meanwhile, two Libyan fighter jets have landed on Malta, according to journalists at the airport. > > Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi may be on his way to Venezuela, British Foreign Secretary William Hague told reporters Monday. > > 11 a.m. ET - As reports streamed of protesters setting fire to a government building in Libya’s capital and ransacking state TV headquarters, questions swirled around Gadhafi and whether he could be the third Arab leader toppled by the wave of protests rippling through the region. His son, Saif al-Islam Gadhafi, is trying to defend the family dynasty, warning on state television of “a fierce civil war” if the demonstrations don’t halt. Who is the Western educated son of Gadhafi? What could Libya’s uprising mean in the long term, CNN commentator Kirk Vandewalle asks. He wrote “A History of Modern Libya.” > > By noon Monday U.N. Secretary General Ban Ki-moon had talked with Gadhafi, saying he was deeply concern about the violence, and that it must stop. At least 233 people have been killed in the protests, according to Human Rights Watch. Its report cites information from hospital sources. CNN is not able to independently confirm the figure, as the network has not been granted access to report on the ground. Unless Secretary General Ban Ki-moon talked to Gadhafi in a plane I don’t see how he is on the way to Venezuela at this time. -XT ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/118 "2011-02-21T19:24:53Z")
Any link about the air force being used against the protesters? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/119 "2011-02-21T19:26:16Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > **Libyans ARE Africans** and there are a significant number of Black Libyans. I recall it was quite the scandal in West Africa when the Libyans had in [2000 pogroms against Blacks.](http://www.theperspective.org/oneafrica.html) - including black Libyans. > > Just because Libyan Arabs are horrible racists doesn’t mean we have to buy in. I wasn’t putting any general blame on any group of people. I thought it was an interesting picture. It’s been reported that Kadaffi has brought in mercenaries from sub-Saharan Africa. Saying that is in no way racist. Cripes. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/120 "2011-02-21T19:27:06Z")
[Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog/2011/feb/21/libya-uprising-middle-east-protests#block-12); BBC has similar reports. It’s ugly. Jaysus, even if he survives, his regime is going to be a pariah even with the Arabs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=7)