# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 60
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1181 "2011-04-07T15:25:20Z")
In that case I apologise if I made any misleading implications and I also take \*your \*point, but my contention is that the only reason these civilians wren’t rounded up and slaughtered like sheep is because they fought like lions. If they hadn’t fought back for their very lives, the massacre would have been worse, but to my mind their deaths still very much count as a massacre by virtue of the fact that their murders were deliberate and on a large scale. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1182 "2011-04-07T15:54:52Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > In that case I apologise if I made any misleading implications and I also take \*your \*point, You said that “wholesale” massacres of the “civilian population” have happened, when in fact they clearly didn’t. I think that goes way beyond a “misleading implication.” > [@](#): > > but my contention is that the only reason these civilians wren’t rounded up and slaughtered like sheep is because they fought like lions. I maintain that a civilian is, in the eyes of international law, a non-combatant. It is disingenuous to support a rebel movement and then pretend that its participants are innocent civilians when they managed to get themselves shot in battle. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Your previous statements implied that civilians were ruthlessly murdered for no good reason, when in fact what you’re talking about are the deaths of heavily-armed individuals that occurred when they were shooting it out with the armed forces. Civilians, my ass. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1183 "2011-04-07T16:47:06Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I maintain that a civilian is, in the eyes of international law, a non-combatant. It is disingenuous to support a rebel movement and then pretend that its participants are innocent civilians when they managed to get themselves shot in battle. That is a fair point. Of course, many of those killed by Gaddafi were not combatants by the broadest conceivable definition. But, it is also a fair point that the rebels started this – for good reasons, I admit, and no doubt hoping it would go the way it had in Tunisia and Egypt – but when it didn’t, they did go ahead and wage civil war, and when you start a civil war under modern conditions, you must accept that you are setting something in motion that **will** kill many of your compatriots, including non-combatants and women and children. As well as destroying a whole lot of your country’s valuable property. There is no way to avoid “collateral damage” in a modern civil war. And every state does have the acknowledged right to put down insurrection by armed force, and doing so in a way that causes noncombatant deaths is not in an of itself a war crime or a crime against humanity. I’m sure the American Civil War killed a few civilians; doesn’t make Lincoln a war criminal. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1184 "2011-04-07T19:34:48Z")
Now wait a minute. My understanding is that the _killing_ was initiated by Gadaffi’s troops, not by any insurgency. The government crackdown is what transformed demonstrators into rebels and made civil war. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1185 "2011-04-07T20:36:32Z")
You’re correct, Spark. The machinegunning started before the rebels existed. Look who Brainglutton is replying to. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1186 "2011-04-07T21:33:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Here,](http://www.thenation.com/article/159707/roots-cote-divoire-crisis) BTW, is an analysis that blames the Cote d’Ivoire crisis in part on the Western demand for chocolate. > > :o Ahermm . . . This is . . . morally difficult. I cannot countenance the POV that regards the blood of poor or dark-skinned foreigners as expendable for the sake of cheap imported oil. But chocolate . . . that’s serious . . . I fail to see how Gbagbo constantly fooling his own people, postponing elections till he has in effect ruled for another term, and most of all pouring gasoline by the barrels on ethnical and religious divisions could find any justification with “The Greed of the West”. Those excuses only contribute to make Africans look incapable of facing their own shortcomings. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2011, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1187 "2011-04-07T22:57:52Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally Posted by Commissar: > > European ex-colonial powers often mistakenly believe that they have an inherent right to interfere in the affairs of their wayward “children.” > > You wouldn’t happen to have on hand anything at all resembling an actual fact to support that assertion, would you? Didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1188 "2011-04-08T09:09:38Z")
Stop calling it a civil war. We’re not talking about two opposing camps of civilians taking up arms against each other here, we’re talking about a dictator using his own armed troops and hired mercenaries to brutally put down an uprising by his own people that started peacefully. **Spark240** is right. This started as a peaceful, yet vocal demonstration in Benghazi by unarmed civilians. That alone would have been unthinkable in Libya even as recently as last year, as Gadaffi has a long history of ruthlessly crushing any voices of dissent. But emboldened by the changes in Tunisia and Egypt, the Libyan people saw their chance to speak out and took to the streets to do so, waving banners and calling out for change. They were met not with rubber bullets and teargas, but with live ammunition from the outset. Gaddaffi’s forces didn’t even make a pretense of trying to control the crowds, they set out to slaughter as many protestors as they could, as quickly as they could, and had absolutely no qualms about firing on women, children and the elderly. The International Criminal Court itself has already seen damning evidence that the use of live fire against protestors was a pre-planned, pre-meditated response by the regime, even before the demonstrations began. Any weapons that the civilians have brought to bear against their oppressors were ones that they captured at very, very high cost. In the initial stages of the uprising, the people had virtually nothing with which to defend themselves. When Gaddaffi’s snipers were employed in Al-Bayda to shoot unarmed protestors in the streets, the people fought them off with rocks. When the people attacked the “Katiba” fortified compund in Benghazi that formed the headquarters of his Internal Security forces in the city, they did so with home-made molotov cocktails and were met with heavy machine-gun fire. The losses were extremely heavy until one man loaded up his car with propane gas cylinders commonly used for cooking, and rammed the front gate of the Katiba in a suicide attack that blew the gate to rubble and allowed the remaining people to storm the compound and overwhelm the security forces within. So let’s be clear here - the people didn’t start this. They didn’t want the massive bloodshed that’s been inflicted on them, they just wanted an end to the regime and the chance to determine their own lives. They wanted to do this peacefully, but by making peaceful dissent impossible, Gaddaffi make a violent uprising inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1189 "2011-04-08T13:51:29Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Stop calling it a civil war. > > We’re not talking about two opposing camps of civilians taking up arms against each other here, we’re talking about a dictator using his own armed troops and hired mercenaries to brutally put down an uprising by his own people that started peacefully. That is still a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1190 "2011-04-08T13:57:10Z")
Really? Is my internal dictionary \*that \*out of whack? I thought a civil war was when the general populace of a country took up arms against each other. What do you call it when a dictator simply kills his own people? How is that a civil war? Not snarking or anything, it’s a genuine question… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1191 "2011-04-08T14:08:00Z")
[Civil War:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war) > [@](#): > > A civil war is a war between organized groups within the same nation state or republic,[1] or, less commonly, between two countries created from a formerly-united nation state.[2] The aim of one side may be to take control of the country or a region, to achieve independence for a region, or to change government policies.[1] The term is a calque of the Latin bellum civile which was used to refer to the various civil wars of the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC. That is what Libya is going through now. I actually heard that Arab prof Anderson Cooper always has on compare it to the Spanish Civil War. But, there is a difference: Hitler and Mussolini supported Franco. Stalin supported the Republic. And now the international community is supporting the Libyan rebels. But **nobody** outside Libya is going to give any material support to Gaddafi. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1192 "2011-04-08T14:19:47Z")
Huh. Consider my ignorance fought then, but he’s still a murdering, delusional shitstain, and the sooner he’s gone, the better. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1193 "2011-04-08T14:27:03Z")
It is _now_ a civil war. It didn’t start off that way. Unless you call the Montgomery Bus Boycott a civil war. Except instead of dogs and hoses, the government used rapid firing quad mounted cannons. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/HaYCjfvHIsQ/hqdefault.jpg "ZSU-23-4 Shilka on shooting range") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYCjfvHIsQ) This sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1194 "2011-04-08T15:08:19Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Huh. Consider my ignorance fought then, but he’s still a murdering, delusional shitstain, and the sooner he’s gone, the better. No argument. I bet even Hugo Chavez is by now wishing Gaddafi would just sail off to St. Helena or somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1195 "2011-04-08T21:42:40Z")
In addition to “collateral damage,” a modern war (civil or otherwise) often involves “friendly fire” deaths. [NATO airstrike kills rebels.](http://www.csmonitor.com/World/terrorism-security/2011/0408/NATO-blames-fluid-ground-situation-for-airstrikes-hitting-Libyan-rebels) As a citizen of a NATO member country: :o Sorry! Our bad! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1196 "2011-04-08T21:52:25Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It is _now_ a civil war. It didn’t start off that way. Unless you call the Montgomery Bus Boycott a civil war. Except instead of dogs and hoses, the government used rapid firing quad mounted cannons. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYCjfvHIsQ](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaYCjfvHIsQ) > > This sort of thing. And doing that to unarmed protesters could be considered a crime against humanity. But, once the rebels take up arms and take the field against the government – which they always have the option **not** to do – then they’re fair game by any standard; and, as I said, at that point the rebels must accept that **they** are setting something in motion that will kill their own country’s noncombatants, etc. Which does not mean it is never worth doing; but it does mean that you cannot fairly charge a government of whatever form or legitimacy with “crimes against humanity” just for fighting back. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2011, 10:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1197 "2011-04-09T10:17:08Z")
The point of the matter is that the Libyan Government did that to unarmed protestors. Before any rebels took up arms and took the field against their government. Do you understand this, BrainGlutton, or have I been imprecise? Do you need me to make myself more clear here? Man protest. Man get shot by horrible horrible big gun. Other man protest. Other man get shot by helicopter. Third man and fourth man say this is crime. They start rebellion. But first man and also other man, they still shot. This crime against humanity. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1198 "2011-04-10T01:31:44Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > The point of the matter is that the Libyan Government did that to unarmed protestors. > Before any rebels took up arms and took the field against their government. > Do you understand this, BrainGlutton, or have I been imprecise? Do you need me to make myself more clear here? > Man protest. Man get shot by horrible horrible big gun. Other man protest. Other man get shot by helicopter. Third man and fourth man say this is crime. They start rebellion. > But first man and also other man, they still shot. This crime against humanity. That’s what **I** said. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1199 "2011-04-10T01:39:46Z")
Sorry I haven’t been following this thread or following the Libyan situation much lately since Japan. I understand that Gaddafi’s troops are basically kicking the rebels’ asses? An American general basically said the rebels were going to lose? Is either side being resupplied with weapons? By whom? I am so glad Obama made NATO Europe take the lead on this. How are the Yurpeans doing? Last I heard they need our A-10s. How much longer does Gaddafi need to stay in power until NATO feels internationally obliged to leave and let Gaddafi get on with ruling his country? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1200 "2011-04-10T02:15:49Z")
Things look bad right now, but then again, right now, the actual defected military forces are busy training new military forces, as I understand things. It’s going to be fast and half-assed, but every day they stall, the rebel forces grow closer towards becoming an effective army. If they can last long enough, they _will_ be able to fight the loyalists in the field. But it’s gonna be a month or so. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=59) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=61)