# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 65
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1281 "2011-04-25T16:29:27Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > There’s no need to twist and misrepresent my position, especially given that it’s really not that hard to understand in the first place. Here, let’s try again: > > “Self-determination” means the right of a people to decide, without foreign interference, questions relating to their further development as a people. With me so far? > > Thus, Libyans are the only people that should be involved in determining Libya’s future. If different subsets of Libyans need to fight it out in order to see whose ideas have more support (and thus legitimacy), then that is how it must work. What we should not have, under any circumstances, is military intervention by foreign warmongerers. That is anathema to self-determination. > > Now, let’s do a quick exercise to make sure you grasped this. Which of the following can properly participate in Libya’s process of self-determination? > > (1) The Libyan people as a whole? **Yes**. > (2) Colonel Gadaffi? **Yes** , as part of the Libyan people. > (3) A random Libyan rebel? **Yes** , as part of the Libyan people. > (4) You and me? \*\* No.\*\* > (5) The French? \*\* No.\*\* > (6) The British? \*\* No.\*\* > (7) The US military? **Sweet Lenin, no.** > > Hopefully this is sufficiently clear now. Carry on. **Commissar,** just to clarify the outer boundaries here, would you please state a hypothetical scenario where country A **would** be justified in intervening in a civil war in country B? And for what legitimate reasons? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1282 "2011-04-25T16:31:38Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > What, you DON’T want Khadafy to be the “self” who “determines” Libya’s form of government? “After experimenting with various forms of government, Ankh-Morpork had finally settled on the form of democracy known as, ‘One Man, One Vote.’ The Patrician was the Man. He had the Vote.” – _The Colour of Magic,_ Terry Pratchett ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1283 "2011-04-25T19:18:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **Commissar,** just to clarify the outer boundaries here, would you please state a hypothetical scenario where country A **would** be justified in intervening in a civil war in country B? And for what legitimate reasons? I believe that such situations would be very few and far in between. One exception that I would make is if A and B have extremely close cultural, linguistic, political, economic, historical, etc. ties that effectively make them almost the same state, albeit with different borders and governments. This almost always requires that A and B be recent splinter states of a larger entity that encompassed both in the recent past. Under this exception, for example, Syria’s intervention in Lebanon’s civil war was perfectly acceptable. Failing such close ties, I would only allow an intervention in cases in which there is a clear violation of an applicable treaty, the violation is committed by a signatory state, and the treaty explicitly authorizes military intervention as a remedy. For example, A and B draft a treaty saying, “We reject genocide and hereby covenant with each other to allow either party to use military force to stop genocide from occurring in the other party’s territory.” 10 years later, A begins slaughtering its ethnic Lilliputian minority. B can now legally intervene in this purely domestic affair. To the best of my knowledge, there are no such treaties in existence at this time. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1284 "2011-04-25T22:10:14Z")
Well, what about the “glorious Soviet Union” interfering in the self-determination of the German people, the Ukrainian people, the Hungarian people, the Latvian people, **the Belarussian people** , etc., and the “glorious People’s Republic of China” interfering in the self-determination of the Vietnamese people and the Tibetan people? Those are all peachy-keen, right, Commissar? But we’ve already seen your concept of what is and is not a treaty. Look at all the inanities you posted about the Korean war. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1285 "2011-04-25T22:22:42Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > There’s no need to twist and misrepresent my position Right, you’re doing enough of that yourself. > [@](#): > > “Self-determination” means the right of a people to decide, without foreign interference, questions relating to their further development as a people. With me so far? Except for the part where you’re deploring the Libyan people’s attempts to decide their country’s government for themselves, and bitterly denouncing “Christendon’s” attempts to assist them as an attack on the Libyan nation and its people. That’s where you’re not even with your own self. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2011, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1286 "2011-04-25T22:48:01Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > interfering in the self-determination[…]peachy-keen Well, as we’ve seen, “self-determination” means whatever Commissar wants it to mean. It certainly doesn’t actually mean letting the people decide for themselves what their government will be like, because voting is bad and tyranny is good. And it certainly doesn’t apply if people share culture/language/whatever, because then a nation like China can invade Tibet and it’s not a violation of their sovereignty (which Commissar really does support, really!) and it’s not a violation of their rights to self-determination (which Commissar really does support, really!), it’s “liberating” them. Naturally, self-determination also doesn’t mean letting people have their Commissar Approved trial-by-combat, since Commissar is okay with a dictator being supplied with massive amounts of mercenary force and out-of-state weaponry that he’s purchased, but is quite opposed to the rebels being given foreign military aid, as if they can’t determine their government once the battle is over. I do have to say, though, the whole Calculus of Brutality is an interesting nail to hang your hat on, for a communist especially. The side that has a greater capitalistic outlay of lucre in order to purchase weapons and troops has the greater degree of ‘support of the people’ and more ‘self-determination’. So in a nation of a million people, a dictator with a dozen jets armed with cluster bombs is the true Voice of the People and 900,000 guys armed with sticks and foul language are just upstarts. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2011, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1287 "2011-04-26T03:32:05Z")
BBC is reporting that Italy has reversed policy and will now help bomb the bejeesus out of Ka-Daffy. The good news just keeps on comin’! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1288 "2011-04-27T17:20:31Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > BBC is reporting that Italy has reversed policy and will now help bomb the bejeesus out of Ka-Daffy. The good news just keeps on comin’! Really? [**Bombardment of Misrata continues after Nato air strikes**](http://www.euronews.net/2011/04/27/bombardment-of-misrata-continues-after-nato-air-strikes/) [**NATO initiatives not seen decisive in Libya war**](http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/analysis-nato-initiatives-not-seen-decisive-in-libya-war/) Good news indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Tyrannosaur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Tyrannosaur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tyrannosaur)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2011, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1289 "2011-04-27T21:10:34Z")
Battle continues for Libya’s Misurata > [@](#): > > Libya’s opposition fighters are battling Muammar Gaddafi’s forces on the country’s western border, while fighting continues in the besieged city of Misurata. > > Pro-democracy forces said the Libyan army withdrew from central Misurata, but fierce fighting was still ongoing for control of the city’s port on Wednesday. > > “Gaddafi’s forces retreated from the port area where they were positioned yesterday after air strikes > by the NATO forces. The strikes completely destroyed 37 military vehicles,” an opposition spokesman, called Reda, told the Reuters news agency. > > "Gaddafi’s forces this morning started bombarding an area about 10km north of the city. It is known as the Steel area. > > “The bombardment is still going on. They are using Grad missiles … Warplanes are flying over Misurata’s outskirts but I don’t hear any sound of strikes,” he said by telephone. > > Read more: [Battle continues for Libya’s Misurata | News | Al Jazeera](http://aljazeera.com/news/africa/2011/04/2011426162624441291.html) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1290 "2011-04-28T02:57:57Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Really? > > [**Bombardment of Misrata continues after Nato air strikes**](http://www.euronews.net/2011/04/27/bombardment-of-misrata-continues-after-nato-air-strikes/) > > [**NATO initiatives not seen decisive in Libya war**](http://www.trust.org/alertnet/news/analysis-nato-initiatives-not-seen-decisive-in-libya-war/) > > Good news indeed. Yes, Italy may be getting tired of the refugees, especially with France starting to close the border to any. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1291 "2011-04-28T03:27:50Z")
How long will Khadafy’s ammo hold out? We can keep supplying the insurgents, but can he keep getting adequately resupplied via the black market? That looks like what it’s come down to. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1292 "2011-04-28T06:47:34Z")
“Ukraine’s far-left Progressive Socialist Party said on Tuesday it has delivered an award to the Libyan embassy in Kiev naming Muammar Gaddafi a ‘soldier of anti-NATO resistance.’” > **[Ukrainian far-left party awards Gaddafi anti-NATO award](https://sputnikglobe.com/20110426/163718107.html)** > > Ukraine's far-left Progressive Socialist Party said on Tuesday it has delivered an award to the Libyan embassy in Kiev naming Muammar Gaddafi a "soldier of anti-NATO resistance." 🙂 It’s always nice to be reminded that the entire world has not gone mad, and that there are still rational people saying rational things in the face of warmongering and religious hate. Also, this short article may be of interest to those posters that were insinuating that it is odd for a socialist to support the rightful Libyan government of the good Colonel. Think again. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1293 "2011-04-28T07:25:33Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > “Ukraine’s far-left Progressive Socialist Party said on Tuesday it has delivered an award to the Libyan embassy in Kiev naming Muammar Gaddafi a ‘soldier of anti-NATO resistance.’” > > [Ukrainian far-left party awards Gaddafi anti-NATO award - 26.04.2011, Sputnik International](http://en.rian.ru/world/20110426/163718107.html) > > 🙂 It’s always nice to be reminded that the entire world has not gone mad, and that there are still rational people saying rational things in the face of warmongering and religious hate. > > Also, this short article may be of interest to those posters that were insinuating that it is odd for a socialist to support the rightful Libyan government of the good Colonel. Think again. Wasn’t it the Libyan ambassador to Ukraine that early on in the conflict went over to the rebels and called Daffy Nazi-Hitler-Gadaffi? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1294 "2011-04-28T08:05:08Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > 🙂 It’s always nice to be reminded that the entire world has not gone mad, and that there are still rational people saying rational things in the face of warmongering and religious hate. How many times do you have to be told that the Libyan rebels are Muslim? ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1295 "2011-04-28T09:16:11Z")
No point wasting your breath **Monty**. Just take pleasure in knowing that despite the ridiculous, witless, spluttering proclamations that some have seen fit to spout in this thread, Gaddaffi and his regime will inevitably be removed and the people of Libya will be rewarded with the free nation they so amply deserve. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1296 "2011-04-28T11:38:41Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > the rightful Libyan government of the good Colonel. Skipping the “good” part - after all that confused splutter about the Libyan people’s right to self-determination, what makes the regime “rightful”? What system of morality or reason can lead to that assessment? You’ve already pointed out that YOU support him, sure - but you’ve also pointed out that it isn’t your call to make, either. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1297 "2011-04-28T13:48:16Z")
I’m disappointed there have been no awards from Kim Jong-il. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1298 "2011-04-28T14:00:30Z")
Yeah, he doesn’t always give credit where it’s due, does he? That’s probably why he’s so rone-ry… _d&r_\* ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1299 "2011-04-28T18:29:58Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How many times do you have to be told that the Libyan rebels are Muslim? How many times do you have to be asked how this is relevant? Is it your position that a Muslim nation undergoing a civil war cannot be attacked by a non-Muslim nation for largely religious reasons? If so, I must inform you that your argument is not a sound one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1300 "2011-04-28T18:35:35Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > How many times do you have to be told that the Libyan rebels are Muslim? That implies that Commissar’s argument is on speaking terms with the facts. Evidently instead it’s just an ever-so-funny game, where defending Muslim rebels from a brutal tyrant morphs into attacking a country out of religious hatred. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=64) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=66)