# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 70
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2011, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1381 "2011-06-06T15:05:52Z")
[Rebels take the town of Yafran in the northwest.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/06/20116613502238785.html) ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1382 "2011-06-07T04:20:12Z")
I’m not saying some civilians have not been injured, but the government seems hard-pressed to show any. BBC this morning showed footage they filmed while being taken through a hospital to see civilain victims. They were shown a little girl. A government minder expressed outrage. The little girl’s uncle expressed outrage, in the same words. Shortly later, a hospital employee slipped the reporters a note, written in English on hospital paper, saying the little girl was actually hurt in a car accident. Later, the crew was taken to the site of a bombing where there were some dead pigeons and dogs but no signs of humans. Suddenly they saw the little girl’s uncle mingling with the crowd of minders! Upon repeated questioning, he finally admitted being a state employee. Now none of the government minders will say whether the little girl was a bombing victim or not. ---
**Author:** ![JimH52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JimH52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimH52)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1383 "2011-06-07T18:25:50Z")
[http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43310300/ns/world\_news-mideast\_n\_africa/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43310300/ns/world_news-mideast_n_africa/) This guy is going to hang on until there is nothing left to hang on to. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1384 "2011-06-07T18:42:14Z")
Merged **JimH52** ’s post into this older (but active) thread. ---
**Author:** ![JimH52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f17d59/32.png) [@JimH52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JimH52)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1385 "2011-06-07T18:50:37Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Merged **JimH52** ’s post into this older (but active) thread. Thanks! Still learning my way around. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1386 "2011-06-08T02:08:09Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > I’m not saying some civilians have not been injured, but the government seems hard-pressed to show any. BBC this morning showed footage they filmed while being taken through a hospital to see civilain victims. They were shown a little girl. A government minder expressed outrage. The little girl’s uncle expressed outrage, in the same words. Shortly later, a hospital employee slipped the reporters a note, written in English on hospital paper, saying the little girl was actually hurt in a car accident. Later, the crew was taken to the site of a bombing where there were some dead pigeons and dogs but no signs of humans. Suddenly they saw the little girl’s uncle mingling with the crowd of minders! Upon repeated questioning, he finally admitted being a state employee. Now none of the government minders will say whether the little girl was a bombing victim or not. [Another attempt](http://www.smh.com.au/world/libya-fails-to-fool-media-over-injured-girl-20110608-1friy.html) [at blaming NATO for civilian deaths] ended the same way when a supposed NATO missile was found have Cyrillic script on its side. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1387 "2011-06-09T01:05:05Z")
Now BBC just showed the head of the International Criminal Court saying there’s evidence that not only is Ka-Daffy ordering his troops to rape women, but he’s issuing Viagra. Really. No, um, hard evidence of this yet though. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2011, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1388 "2011-06-14T14:46:38Z")
[More rebel gains.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/06/2011614133151319133.html) > [@](#): > > Pro-democracy fighters have made fresh advances in both the east and the west of Libya, gaining ground against forces loyal to the Libyan leader, Muammar Gaddafi, reports say. > > In the west, the fighters managed to to force government troops into retreat from the town of Kikla, about 150km southwest of the capital, Tripoli, on Tuesday, news agencies said. > > And in the east, they launched more attacks against Gaddafi forces near the oil town of Brega, where fighting on Monday killed at least 25 fighters and wounded dozens more. > > The wounded were transferred to a hospital in Ajdabiya, 160km south of Benghazi, the de facto capital of the rebels who have been fighting to overthrow Gaddafi since mid-February. > > The rebels have spent months trying to seize the strategic oil hub of Brega, which would open the road to Sirte, the Libyan leader’s home town, and from there to Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1389 "2011-06-16T16:59:57Z")
[Gaddafi’s son Saif offers elections.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/06/201161613564341905.html) > [@](#): > > A son of Muammar Gaddafi has announced that his father is willing to hold elections and step aside if he loses, an offer which could test the unity of the Western alliance trying to force the Libyan leader out. > > Saif al-Islam’s proposal, which follows a string of concessions offered by Gaddafi that Western powers have dismissed as ploys, came on Thursday amid mounting frustration in some NATO states at the progress of the military campaign. > > “They (elections) could be held within three months. At the maximum by the end of the year, and the guarantee of transparency could be the presence of international observers,” Saif al-Islam told Italian newspaper Corriere della Sera. > > ‘No exile’ > > He said his father, who has ruled the country for more than four decades, would be ready to step aside if he lost the election but would not go into exile. > > “I have no doubt that the overwhelming majority of Libyans stand with my father and sees the rebels as fanatical Islamist fundamentalists, terrorists stirred up from abroad,” the newspaper quoted Saif al-Islam as saying. > > It was not clear what form the proposed vote would take. Libya has never held elections under Gaddafi and has no elected institutions. > > There was no immediate reaction to the offer from the NATO military alliance or rebels. As to that, don’t get your hopes up, Saif. This is like bringing flowers to your battered wife in intensive care and saying, “You know, honey, maybe you were right, we should think about marriage counseling.” ---
**Author:** ![Ryan\_Liam](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ryan_liam/32/3965_2.png) [@Ryan\_Liam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ryan_Liam)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1390 "2011-06-16T17:58:17Z")
I’m sure they put that ‘which could test the unity of the Western alliance’ as filler. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1391 "2011-06-20T19:26:48Z")
Hm! [Now the rebels are manufacturing their own weapons!](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g40VOldErBBLAx7L05PZ5yTzUu6g?docId=6cf69230bad14f5cbb521ac5941424a5) In besieged Misrata, yet! > [@](#): > > MISRATA, Libya (AP) — Aref Abu Zeid used to be a heavy equipment engineer at the Libya Steel Company. Now he runs an 80-man team working 12 hours a day turning out rockets and weapons to fight Moammar Gadhafi’s forces. > > In this rebel stronghold in western Libya, civilian engineers, mechanics and tradesmen are pumping out materiel to arm the uprising against Gadhafi’s rule that has become a civil war. > > “None of us here have anything to do with the military,” said Abu Zeid, 50, a short man with a thick salt and pepper beard and an easy smile. “Our need to protect our homes, our lives and our city forced us into this war work.” > > Misrata, the country’s third-largest city located 125 miles (200 kilometers) southeast of the capital, is home to the largest steel company in the country and metal is always available here. Has Gaddafi even got a way to replenish his ammo supply, I wonder? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1392 "2011-06-21T18:22:13Z")
[Senators Kerry and McCain have introduced a resolution to authorize limited use of U.S. military force in Libya.](http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/06/21/kerry-and-mccain-introduce-libya-resolution/) It “could be voted on as early as this week.” ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1393 "2011-06-21T19:04:37Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Hm! [Now the rebels are manufacturing their own weapons!](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g40VOldErBBLAx7L05PZ5yTzUu6g?docId=6cf69230bad14f5cbb521ac5941424a5) In besieged Misrata, yet! > > Has Gaddafi even got a way to replenish his ammo supply, I wonder? Is that an honest question? :dubious: Are you in good faith proposing that, while rebel Libyans have figured out how to successfully reproduce elementary centuries-old technology, loyalist Libyans may somehow be incapable of doing likewise? That seems to take black-and-white thinking to new heights. You are free to favor the rebels, but that hardly means that you can logically dismiss the opposing side as a mob of quasi-retarded cretins. The world is much, much more complex than that. And speaking of black-and-white fallacious thinking, I notice that this anti-Qaddafi love-in has produced links to almost all recent stories concerning the Libyan conflict, and yet everyone here has studiously ignored recent stories about a UN finding of war crimes committed by the rebels as well as a NATO air strike that slaughtered numerous innocent civilians. Way to ignore reality when it challenges your preconceived notions, everyone. Now, carry on. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1394 "2011-06-21T19:28:59Z")
Here’s a [June 2 article](http://www.newser.com/story/120011/un-libyan-rebels-committed-war-crimes-too.html) covering the findings by the UN that would likely constitute war crimes. I hadn’t heard of this before: > [@](#): > > A UN investigation has found evidence that both sides of the Libyan conflict have committed war crimes—though the rebels had committed fewer than Moammar Gadhafi’s forces. The rebels were accused of torture and cruel treatment against migrant workers, “which would constitute war crimes,” the report said, according to the BBC. But these violations do not appear to be “part of any ‘widespread or systematic attack’ against a civilian population,” and hence don’t amount to crimes against humanity. > > Gadhafi’s forces, on the other hand, committed murder, torture, and sexual abuse in just such a widespread and systematic fashion… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1395 "2011-06-21T19:49:50Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Is that an honest question? :dubious: Are you in good faith proposing that, while rebel Libyans have figured out how to successfully reproduce elementary centuries-old technology, loyalist Libyans may somehow be incapable of doing likewise? No, I was just wondering if the necessary industrial plant is present in Tripoli or other parts of Libya that the government controls. (The rebels in Misrata did not “figure out how to reproduce” anything, they are using a steel mill that just conveniently happened to be there, and whose crew happens to be loyal to the rebellion.) If not – the most important difference in the sides’ strategic positions is that the rebels are getting some supplies from abroad, while the government is subject to international sanctions/embargo/blockade. And, of course, **whoever runs out of ammo first loses,** is it not so? ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1396 "2011-06-22T02:50:42Z")
BBC quoted a senior British officer as saying if this lasts until September, then his country’s resources will be stretched too thin, what with the ongoing action in Afghanistan. I wonder if this means the heat will be ratcheted up some more. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1397 "2011-06-22T15:49:29Z")
[http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?\_r=1&ref=world](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?_r=1&ref=world) Saddening news IMO, I am disappointed at the Republican opposition to Libya, the party would not do well to return to isolationist views which it has rejected since the defeat of Robert Taft for the nomination in 1952. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1398 "2011-06-22T16:00:20Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?\_r=1&ref=world](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?_r=1&ref=world) > > Saddening news IMO, I am disappointed at the Republican opposition to Libya, the party would not do well to return to isolationist views which it has rejected since the defeat of Robert Taft for the nomination in 1952. They oppose it mainly because Obama supports it I expect. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1399 "2011-06-22T16:14:39Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > They oppose it mainly because Obama supports it I expect. Not necessarilly, Marco Rubio supports our defence of the Libyan people while Kucinich and other "progressives’ oppose it. And its not like its a Republican only thing-Democrats voted en masse against the First Gulf War, which was more justified than Libya and if Bush had intervened in Libya you’d probably be talking about how its a secret plot to genocide all the Libyans and take all their oil or something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1400 "2011-06-22T16:26:18Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?\_r=1&ref=world](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/22/us/politics/22powers.html?_r=1&ref=world) > > Saddening news IMO, I am disappointed at the Republican opposition to Libya, the party would not do well to return to isolationist views which it has rejected since the defeat of Robert Taft for the nomination in 1952. Careful what you wish for. We could have **used** a bit of Republican isolationism in the W years . . . the Bush I years . . . the **Reagan** years . . . The one thing worse than an isolationist is a neocon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=69) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=71)