# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 71
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1401 "2011-06-22T16:37:28Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Careful what you wish for. We could have **used** a bit of Republican isolationism in the W years . . . the Bush I years . . . the **Reagan** years . . . The one thing worse than an isolationist is a neocon. The only problem was Iraq II. Grenada, Panama, Iraq I were all spectecular successes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1402 "2011-06-22T16:47:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The only problem was Iraq II. Grenada, Panama, Iraq I were all spectecular successes. “Spectacular success” and “good idea” are **two different things.** But, I’ll remember that argument for next time a Pub bashes Obama for “getting us into” Libya. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1403 "2011-06-22T16:51:28Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Not necessarilly, Marco Rubio supports our defence of the Libyan people while Kucinich and other "progressives’ oppose it. And its not like its a Republican only thing-Democrats voted en masse against the First Gulf War, which was more justified than Libya and if Bush had intervened in Libya you’d probably be talking about how its a secret plot to genocide all the Libyans and take all their oil or something. If W had intervened in Libya, it almost certainly **would** have been something like that. [Iraq was.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=381910) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 24, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1404 "2011-06-24T23:05:24Z")
[http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/24/house-weighs-cutting-off-funds-for-libya-mission/](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/24/house-weighs-cutting-off-funds-for-libya-mission/) House doesn’t authorize military action but doesn’t cut off funding either. Liked Senator McCain’s quote: > [@](#): > > “It’s way late,” said Sen. John McCain of Arizona, the top Republican on the Armed Services Committee. “This is one of the reasons why they’re having this veritable uprising in the House, because of a lack of communication. And then the icing on the cake was probably for them when he (Obama) said that we’re not engaged in hostilities. That obviously is foolishness.” > > Read more: [http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/24/house-weighs-cutting-off-funds-for-libya-mission/#ixzz1QEnLDUHq](http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/06/24/house-weighs-cutting-off-funds-for-libya-mission/#ixzz1QEnLDUHq) ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1405 "2011-06-27T19:28:25Z")
Well, this barbaric Western interference in the internal affairs of a proud Arab nation has been going on for over 100 days (longer than the equally vile and unjustified bombardment of Yugoslavia). It is encouraging to see that the Colonel is still in power, and that his government has refused to kowtow before Christendom. Perhaps even more importantly, it is extremely heartening to see so many loyal Libyans continuing to fight for their government. Even in the face of overwhelming firepower brought to bear by their Western enemies, these brave loyalists risk death in order to protect the independence, stability, and future of their great nation. These selfless warriors seek neither riches nor glory. Unlike their treacherous co-nationals, they do not covet underserved power, nor do they mewl at the teat of foreign powers. They seek one thing and one thing only: the freedom to live as full human beings, free of foreign oppression. This is the human spirit at its finest! It is the same spirit that inspired so many of my kinsmen to take up arms against the NAZI invaders of my own glorious homeland. This is what gives me hope for the future. I am proud to be a citizen of a world in which so many choose to die on their feet rather than to live on their knees. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1406 "2011-06-27T19:33:37Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Well, this barbaric Western interference in the internal affairs of a proud Arab nation has been going on for over 100 days (longer than the equally vile and unjustified bombardment of Yugoslavia). Yugoslavia? That was to stop a **genocide.** Can you think of a **better** reason to bomb a country?! ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1407 "2011-06-27T20:17:29Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Yugoslavia? That was to stop a **genocide.** Can you think of a **better** reason to bomb a country?! Thing is, your argument is missing a crucial step. I agree that genocide is, by and large, a negative development, and should be discouraged by our species. That’s the general rule; problems arise when one tries to implement it in practice. Who gets to decide what qualifies as “genocide?” Who gets to decide when a military intervention is warranted? Who gets to decide when it is not warranted? Basically, I do not trust the West to make these determinations in anything approaching a fair fashion. Hell, I wouldn’t even trust nations that I do like to make such judgment calls. As far as I can see, there is absolutely nothing that gives anyone any authority to interfere in the affairs of other nations. Sans such authority, any intervention is de facto unjust and unjustifiable. Moreover, I am of the strong opinion that nations tend to end up better off if allowed to solve their own problems at their own pace. Take Rwanda, for example. Unlike most Westerners, I am extremely pleased that the world let it do its own thing when it was getting its pent-up energies out of its system. Without foreign meddling, the issue quickly took care of itself, the stronger side won, and the nation was able to reconcile with its past. Result: a stronger, more stable, and more vibrant Rwanda. Note that I am not saying that the Rwandan genocide was good for Rwanda, only that there was no better way of dealing with it than the hands-off approach that prevailed. I doubt that Rwanda would have been able to make such great progress had it been bombed into the Stone Age, invaded by Westerners, and shredded into a patchwork quilt of ridiculous little hostile states (a la Yugoslavia). ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1408 "2011-06-27T21:12:25Z")
Commisar What was your “glorious homeland” that was invaded by the Nazis? Also if you hate the Nazis so much why are you such an enthusiastic supporter of Arab nationalism considering how many of the Arab nationalists supported the Nazis? ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1409 "2011-06-27T21:27:53Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > These selfless warriors seek neither riches nor glory. Since most of the defenders are mercenaries hired from outside Libya, by definition they seek, if not riches, at least payment. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1410 "2011-06-27T21:35:14Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Unlike their treacherous co-nationals, they do not covet underserved power, nor do they mewl at the teat of foreign powers. :dubious: Don’t you think it is extremely telling, and **not** in any way that reflects well on Gaddafi or his supporters, that there **are** no foreign powers left anywhere in the world, not even Venezuela, willing to offer them the teat? Remember, when you are right and the whole world is wrong . . . you are probably not right. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1411 "2011-06-27T21:37:27Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Note that I am not saying that the Rwandan genocide was good for Rwanda, only that there was no better way of dealing with it than the hands-off approach that prevailed. FWIW, Bill Clinton has stated that one of his greatest regrets from his time in office was that he did nothing about Rwanda. (At the time, he was dealing with political fallout from the Somalia intervention, and another intervention in Africa seemed like too hard a sell; but he wishes he had done it anyway, or at least made an effort.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1412 "2011-06-28T00:38:02Z")
[ICC issues arrest warrant for Gaddafi et al.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/06/20116278148166670.html) > [@](#): > > The International Criminal Court has issued arrest warrants for the Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi, his son and his spy chief, citing evidence of crimes against humanity committed against political opponents. > > Judge Sanji Mmasenono Monageng announced the decision on behalf of a three-judge panel in The Hague on Monday, saying the warrants were meant to force Gaddafi and his two confidantes to appear before the court and prevent the possibility of a cover-up. > > It was the second time in the ICC’s nine-year history that it issued an arrest warrant for a sitting head of state. The ICC indicted the Sudanese president, Omar al-Bashir, in 2009, though he has yet to be arrested. > > “State policy was designed at the highest level of the state machinery, and aimed at quelling by any means, including by the use of lethal force, demonstrations of civilians against the regime of Muammar Muhammad Gaddafi,” Monageng said. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1413 "2011-06-28T01:34:02Z")
wtfmate This boggles me. I usually take human rights orgs with a grain of salt, as they vilify everyone, but this is [awkward](http://www.democracynow.org/2011/6/27/headlines/human_rights_organizations_cast_doubt_on_libya_war_atrocity_allegations). > [@](#): > > The Independent of London reports human rights organizations are beginning to cast doubt on some of the claims of atrocities committed by forces loyal to Col. Muammar Gaddafi that were used to justify NATO’s war in Libya. Gaddafi’s regime was accused of ordering mass rapes, using foreign mercenaries and employing helicopters against civilian protesters. An investigation by Amnesty International has failed to find evidence for any of these human rights violations. The Independent of London also found indications that on several occasions the rebels in Benghazi appeared to have knowingly made false claims or manufactured evidence. The Independent is, as usual, [critical](http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/patrick-cockburn-dont-believe-everything-you-see-and-read-about-gaddafi-2302830.html): > [@](#): > > It is all credit to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch that they have taken a sceptical attitude to atrocities until proven. Contrast this responsible attitude with that of Hillary Clinton or the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, who blithely suggested that Gaddafi was using rape as a weapon of war to punish the rebels. Equally irresponsible would be a decision by the ICC to prosecute Gaddafi and his lieutenants, thus making it far less likely that Gaddafi can be eased out of power without a fight to the finish. This systematic demonisation of Gaddafi – a brutal despot he may be, but not a monster on the scale of Saddam Hussein – also makes it difficult to negotiate a ceasefire with him, though he is the only man who can deliver one. > > There is nothing particularly surprising about the rebels in Benghazi making things up or producing dubious witnesses to Gaddafi’s crimes. They are fighting a war against a despot whom they fear and hate and they will understandably use black propaganda as a weapon of war. But it does show naivety on the part of the foreign media, who almost universally sympathise with the rebels, that they swallow whole so many atrocity stories fed to them by the rebel authorities and their sympathisers. The U.S. has said (according to NPR this afternoon) that we’re _openly_ trying to assassinate Ghaddafi. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1414 "2011-06-28T01:48:31Z")
It’s hardly surprising that at least some of the reports were made up. That said, it strikes me as unlikely that _all_ (or even most of) the reports were made up, and it’s a little early to know for sure — after all, a number of the areas where large-scale massacres were said to take place are still under government control, and some criminal acts (like murdering dissidents) aren’t all that hard to cover up, in terms of physical evidence. ETA: trying to assassinate Qaddafi strikes me as the only decent thing to do. He is, after all, the commander of the military, and his death would be strategically more important than that of his underlings; so why should his life be treated as worth more? EATA: AFAIK, the mass rape thing didn’t become a news story until a couple weeks ago. It’ll be nice if it’s not true. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1415 "2011-06-28T03:26:08Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I agree that genocide is, by and large, a negative development, and should be discouraged by our species. “By and large”? Are you implying that there are times when genocide is justified? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1416 "2011-06-28T03:40:07Z")
Well, now that depends. Can supporting genocide somehow be anti-western and/or pro tyranny? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1417 "2011-06-28T03:41:51Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > “By and large”? Are you implying that there are times when genocide is justified? :dubious: Well, we can’t very well be having with all those coarse, crude Neanderthals around here, now can we? _sniff_ Better this way. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1418 "2011-06-28T04:06:33Z")
And now the Libyan football team has defected to the rebels in a major propaganda coup, according to the BBC. The Beeb also interviewed the rebels’ defense secretary. He said information from a string of high-level defectors shows Ka-Daffy’s close circle is growing smaller by the day. He expects an end to this about August. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1419 "2011-06-28T05:08:44Z")
Are we still going on about Libya? Why haven’t we started a new war by now. This one is already boring. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2011, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1420 "2011-06-28T07:35:39Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Are we still going on about Libya? Why haven’t we started a new war by now. This one is already boring. The Syrians keep pussyfooting around . . . what can you do? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=70) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=72)