# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 73
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 7:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1441 "2011-06-29T07:45:45Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > No, you’re not a troll pretending to be a Russian, but you’ve obviously been so thoroughly Americanized that you’ve forgotten the language you grew up with as well as important aspects of the culture. > > Frankly, I think we should help you because I think it’s awful that someone would so completely lose contact with their motherland. Ha, nice try. I’m not going to waste much more time on this topic, since you’re not really listening. Arguing proper English translation from gender endings in Russian is… bizarre. English has no gender endings, and you’re going to look pretty silly if you try to replicate them by putting “mother” in front of all feminine words. You know what else takes the feminine form in Russian? “Kartoshka,” meaning “potato.” I suppose that means the proper translation for it is “mother potato,” eh? 😉 Look, if you want to pretend to be the resident expert in languages you cannot even begin to comprehend, knock yourself out. Whatever floats your boat. Also, feel free to dismiss all claims regarding my heritage if you so wish; it’s no skin off my back. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1442 "2011-06-29T08:57:06Z")
Comm: You already embarrassed yourself with pretending to know so much about languages. Why are you doing so again with pretending to know about other things so much when you obviously have no clue about it? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1443 "2011-06-30T23:40:25Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > The world is not black-and-white, my friend. Sometimes a civilized nation will make a regrettable mistake, and sometimes a barbarous one will act with surprising civility. I take a totality of the circumstances approach, if you will. Civilized nations are those that, by and large, behave in non-imperialistic manners. > > Hence, the one or two times that the great USSR could have been said to have exceeded the outward boundaries of perfect civility do not detract from its status as a thoroughly civilized nation. Sure, the whole Afghanistan misadventure was a pretty bad idea. Whoops. This does not somehow make us identical to the American Empire, which tends to attack more nations in a year than the Soviet Union did almost a century. That’s akin to arguing that a serial killer should be viewed the same way as someone that committed negligent manslaughter in the neighboring county. The comparisons are equally absurd. I wasn’t even thinking of Afghanistan. I actually had in mind the unilaterally aggressive actions of the Soviet Union towards Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania in 1939-40, during which time - it should be noted - the Soviet Union was an ally of Nazi Germany, supplying it with vast quantities of valuable resources, particularly petroleum. Whatever the USA has done or is currently doing has nothing to do with your assertion that, “The civilized world, by definition, does not interfere in the affairs of other nations.” Unless you wish to claim that the USSR was not a civilized nation at this time, in which case we are not in disagreement. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1444 "2011-07-01T00:32:38Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > There is no perfect analogue, but there are acceptable translations, and then there are horribly misleading ones. “Comrade” is an example of the latter. The best (though certainly non-perfect) translation is, indeed, “friend.” This captures most of the original meaning while minimizing the lost-in-translation effect. “Comrade,” on the other hand, has militaristic connotations that have nothing to do with the original Russian word. Eh? Wouldn’t pre-Revolutionary Russian soldiers have called each other _tovarisch?_ I always assumed the Communists adopted it **because** of militaristic connotations, comrades-in-the-revolutionary-struggle and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1445 "2011-07-01T04:06:44Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > I wasn’t even thinking of Afghanistan. > > I actually had in mind the unilaterally aggressive actions of the Soviet Union towards Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, and Romania in 1939-40, during which time - it should be noted - the Soviet Union was an ally of Nazi Germany, supplying it with vast quantities of valuable resources, particularly petroleum. > > Whatever the USA has done or is currently doing has nothing to do with your assertion that, “The civilized world, by definition, does not interfere in the affairs of other nations.” Unless you wish to claim that the USSR was not a civilized nation at this time, in which case we are not in disagreement. And I specifically left those incidents out of the equation, because it is my position that good-faith territorial disputes with one’s neighbors do not diminish one’s status as a civilized nation. Sure, sometimes it would be better to resolve such differences in non-military manners, but that’s a relatively minor issue. Let’s take your Poland example, for I’m particularly partial to that topic. You see, my ethnically Belorussian paternal grandparents were born in what was then Polish-occupied Belarus, and lived under the Polish yoke until the liberation of that part of Belarus during the Great Patriotic War. They actually found the NAZI occupation to be no worse than the Polish one. Both were equally oppressive and saw systematic attempts by their overlords to eradicate their Belorussian heritage. The point is that the USSR-Poland conflict was not some sort of barbaric socialist plan. Rather, it was the natural apex of a centuries-long war of regional hegemony, which resulted in the liberation of half of my family. This was a just war with a just outcome. Now compare this to something like the Imperial adventures in, say, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan… None of these were bona fide border disputes. None of these was just. Say what you will about the USSR, but we never flew soldiers halfway around the world to oppress people in Latin American, for example. That is what makes us different. That is what makes us civilized. Also, fuck Poland. 😉 > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Eh? Wouldn’t pre-Revolutionary Russian soldiers have called each other _tovarisch?_ I always assumed the Communists adopted it **because** of militaristic connotations, comrades-in-the-revolutionary-struggle and all that. Precisely [edit: referring to the “pre-Revolutionary” part]! The word predated its Soviet usage, and so should not be saddled with a translation that captures ONLY that portion that had something to do with its Soviet revolutionary usage. At its core, the word means, roughly, “friend.” “Comrade” does not adequately capture this meaning, and hence is not a very good translation at all. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1446 "2011-07-01T04:08:37Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > And I specifically left those incidents out of the equation, because it is my position that good-faith territorial disputes with one’s neighbors do not diminish one’s status as a civilized nation. Sure, sometimes it would be better to resolve such differences in non-military manners, but that’s a relatively minor issue. > > Let’s take your Poland example, for I’m particularly partial to that topic. You see, my ethnically Belorussian paternal grandparents were born in what was then Polish-occupied Belarus, and lived under the Polish yoke until the liberation of that part of Belarus during the Great Patriotic War. They actually found the NAZI occupation to be no worse than the Polish one. Both were equally oppressive and saw systematic attempts by their overlords to eradicate their Belorussian heritage. > > The point is that the USSR-Poland conflict was not some sort of barbaric socialist plan. Rather, it was the natural apex of a centuries-long war of regional hegemony, which resulted in the liberation of half of my family. This was a just war with a just outcome. Now compare this to something like the Imperial adventures in, say, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan… None of these were bona fide border disputes. None of these was just. Say what you will about the USSR, but we never flew soldiers halfway around the world to oppress people in Latin American, for example. That is what makes us different. That is what makes us civilized. > > Also, fuck Poland. 😉 > > . Why not in Korea for example the South was invaded by the Kim Dynasty. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1447 "2011-07-01T04:21:00Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > we never flew soldiers halfway around the world to oppress people in Latin American, for example. That is what makes us different. That is what makes us civilized. Readers should note that: 1. Commissar is, by his own claims, an American. His language about what “we” did is somewhat odd, considering that he voted for Obama. 2. In any case, Commissar is also playing more than a little fast and loose with the facts. I won’t touch on the amusing concept that the Soviets’ imperial ambitions were all “good faith” wars, but the idea that the USSR wasn’t acting to oppress the people of Latin America is laughably ignorant and wildly factually deceptive. The USSR sponsored proxy forces throughout Central and South America, provided arms shipments, acted to destabilize and subvert governments, etc… 2a. It is, of course, a very amusing rationalization that Empire Empire Empire Empire Empire Amerikkka is bad for oppressing people X miles away from their mainland, while the Soviets were civilized because they just oppressed people within their own borders and/or closer to home. Civilization, after all, is the mileage you rack up while oppressing people. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1448 "2011-07-01T05:01:00Z")
A history moment: one of the tragic things of the Second World War was the taking of ethnic nationalism to its logical conclusion. Prior to the war, ethnicities and national borders were only vaguely related to each other. During the war, people from non-dominant ethnic groups were thrown out of their homes or murdered outright, to the point that post-war Europe is _extraordinarily_ ethnically homogeneous. Of course, I use the word “non-dominant” to make a point: who got thrown out and who stayed didn’t depend on any sort of moral right-to-the-land or even which group was a majority; it depended just on whose respective nation-state was winning\*. This homogenizing of Europe, while probably helpful to Europe’s current peace, constitutes one of the most tragic episodes in human history. Well, either that or it was a just war. Whichever. \*Unless local partisans got to you before your nation-state’s army did. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1449 "2011-07-01T06:59:08Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Why not in Korea for example the South was invaded by the Kim Dynasty. You do know Commissar thinks that the South started that military conflict, don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1450 "2011-07-01T10:50:51Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > And I specifically left those incidents out of the equation, because it is my position that good-faith territorial disputes with one’s neighbors do not diminish one’s status as a civilized nation. Sure, sometimes it would be better to resolve such differences in non-military manners, but that’s a relatively minor issue. No, that is _not_ your position. For the third time - in your own words: “The civilized world, by definition, does not interfere in the affairs of other nations.” I am starting to draw the conclusion that you are not arguing in good faith. Finland, Poland and Romania had significant amounts of their territory confiscated by the USSR at the point of a gun (in the case of Finland and Poland, there was armed conflict) which was retained by the USSR until its dissolution five decades later. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania were annexed in their _entirety_ for the same duration. I fail to see how, by any reasonable standard, this does not consititute “interference” in the affairs of these nations. > [@](#): > > Let’s take your Poland example, for I’m particularly partial to that topic. You see, my ethnically Belorussian paternal grandparents were born in what was then Polish-occupied Belarus, and lived under the Polish yoke until the liberation of that part of Belarus during the Great Patriotic War. They actually found the NAZI occupation to be no worse than the Polish one. Both were equally oppressive and saw systematic attempts by their overlords to eradicate their Belorussian heritage. > > The point is that the USSR-Poland conflict was not some sort of barbaric socialist plan. Rather, it was the natural apex of a centuries-long war of regional hegemony, which resulted in the liberation of half of my family. This was a just war with a just outcome. Now compare this to something like the Imperial adventures in, say, Korea, Vietnam, Iraq twice, Afghanistan… None of these were bona fide border disputes. None of these was just. Say what you will about the USSR, but we never flew soldiers halfway around the world to oppress people in Latin American, for example. That is what makes us different. That is what makes us civilized. > > Also, fuck Poland. 😉 Your historical perspective is neatly limited to that time, after 1922, when the eastern borders of the Second Polish Republic were formally established. You make no mention at all of the Soviet invasion of Poland 1919-1921, nor of course to the period between 1815-1919, when those parts of Poland not under Prussian/German or Austrian/Austro-Hungarian jurisdiction formed part of the Tsar’s lands, nor to the westward expansion of the Russian Empire at the expense of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the 17th and 18th centuries. Your Belarussian chauvinism and anti-Polish racism are duly noted. Though I have not a drop of known Polish (or any Eastern European) ancestry, I find the latter particularly nauseating. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2011, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1451 "2011-07-01T18:36:53Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > No, that is _not_ your position. > > For the third time - in your own words: > > “The civilized world, by definition, does not interfere in the affairs of other nations.” I know perfectly well what my own words were, and I stand by them, thank you very much. Look, I gave you a general rule that I subscribe to, and then I expanded on it by fleshing out the applicable exceptions. So, yes, civility is non-interference. Just interference in good faith shall not be construed to violate this rule. That’s really as plain as I can make it. > [@](#): > > Your historical perspective is neatly limited to that time, after 1922, when the eastern borders of the Second Polish Republic were formally established. Incorrect, as I will demonstrate in the next segment of this response. However, I must point out that you have completely ignored what I posted. The fact that Poland was brutally repressing my ancestors contradicts your own views, so you sweep these inconvenient facts under the rug and proceed to pretend that they don’t exist. In other words, you’re essentially doing the exact same thing that you accuse me of doing. > [@](#): > > You make no mention at all of the Soviet invasion of Poland 1919-1921, nor of course to the period between 1815-1919, when those parts of Poland not under Prussian/German or Austrian/Austro-Hungarian jurisdiction formed part of the Tsar’s lands, nor to the westward expansion of the Russian Empire at the expense of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth during the 17th and 18th centuries. Thank you for proving my previous point. As I explicitly stated, “it was the natural apex of a centuries-long war of regional hegemony, which resulted in the liberation of half of my family.” The USSR did not wake up one day, look around, and decide to invade a neighbor from sheer boredom. The geopolitics of the region have pitted Russia/USSR and Poland against each other for many centuries, and have cost many thousands of lives on both sides. Ignoring this past so that you can pretend that the Soviet response was unprovoked is to look at European history with massive blinders on. If you ignore the context, you lose the substance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1452 "2011-07-03T19:45:16Z")
😕 Hmmm . . . Now it gets more complicated. [Sudanese army seizes Libyan town of Kufra.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8611199/Sudanese-army-seizes-southern-Libyan-town.html) > [@](#): > > Officials overseeing the no-fly zone enforced by Nato over Libya said the Sudanese move north of border had not encountered resistance from troops loyal to Col Muammar Gaddafi. > > Since the February uprising against his regime, the Libyan leader’s forces have been concentrated around Tripoli, the capital; Sirte, the eastern town that is Col Gaddafi’s birthplace and Sebha, the desert outpost where the dictator grew up. > > Officials said control of the town of Kufra and nearby military base granted the Sudanese a key strategic foothold between the regime and the opposition Transitional National Council (TNC) which holds the eastern seaboard and a series of rebel enclaves. [Kufra,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kufra) in southeastern Libya (really isolated in the Sahara; historically important desert crossroads; historically and recently a center for human trafficking). So, whoever wins the civil war is gonna have to deal with the Sudanese next, I guess, or else just let 'em keep it. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2011, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1453 "2011-07-03T23:10:20Z")
BBC and Al Jazeera aren’t reporting it yet —and it’s been a couple hours. We’ll see if this amounts to anything, but I’m a little dubious. Invading a country where NATO is conducting kinetic operations isn’t a great long-term survival strategy. Actually, it isn’t a great short-term survival strategy, either. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2011, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1454 "2011-07-04T21:46:15Z")
According to [this](http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/04/nato-real-plan-libya) analysis, NATO doesn’t really **want** the rebels to take Tripoli, which would entail a lot of killing on and off the battlefield; rather, it wants the Gaddafi regime to collapse from pressure, fall to a coup d’etat, and then the coup leaders can reach a negotiated settlement with the rebels, and then the new government will be full of old-regime figures (minus the Gaddafis) who know how to run things, and whom everybody knows and knows how to deal with. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1455 "2011-07-07T04:24:21Z")
BBC is saying the rebels have taken a town just 100 kilometers from Tripoli. Slowly closing in. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 7, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1456 "2011-07-07T17:11:04Z")
[Aljazeera confirms:](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/20117763916234823.html) > [@](#): > > Rebels in Libya’s western mountains have advanced a dozen kilometres, seizing a town in another step towards securing a key north-south road that would open the way to the capital, Tripoli. > > The rebels wrested the town of al-Qawalish from forces loyal to leader Muammar Gaddafi after a a roughly six-hour battle on Wednesday. > > \ > > Al-Qawalish is about 50km west of Gharyan, the last city in the Nafusa Mountain range, which runs east from the border with Tunisia and has been controlled mostly by rebels since the uprising against Gaddafi broke out in mid-February. > > Gharyan - still controlled by the regime - lies astride a major north-south highway that connects Tripoli with Sabha, a town in the southern desert that is held by Gaddafi’s forces and has been used to supply his troops and regime-held areas. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1457 "2011-07-08T02:58:50Z")
The Beeb said something recently about the rebels awaiting some sort of uprising within Tripoli that their information leads them to expect. Once that occurs, they’ll move more quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1458 "2011-07-08T20:11:01Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I have not read any of your pusillaminous trolling since my last post. But this is what happens when the Free World acts from their base values. We are going to flatten the criminal Libyan regime and if you think the British people are going to be deterred from standing up for people fighting for freedom by casualties you don’t know the British. > > I am not a tory but at this moment I am goddam proud that my government is doing what is right anddamn the consequences. Shame Obama has no bloody backbone and had to be shamed into doing the right thing but like Churchill said, you can always rely on the US doing the right thing, once they have exhausted all the other alternatives. > > Gadaffi. We are coming for you. People yearning to be free. Sorry we are late but we’re on our way. And go France. Have been away on holiday and am still working my way through this thread. No doubt will get in the shit for this, but no way no how, is that bloke British. Tagos gets all of our idioms and modes of speech completely wrong. Sorry mods,but beneath this handsome, steely exterior, beats a heart that is forever England. And I hate to see twats like that BSing it . Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1459 "2011-07-08T20:22:19Z")
Sorry I’ve got to say this ,but the Lybian "Rebels"couldn’t fight their way out of a damp paper bag. Nor want to, they’re relying on putting up a noisy show, and then waiting for the Brits and the French to actually do the job for them. They are,to coin a phrase,Con Men. Cameron thinks that mostly,he’s going to get status as a world statesman, a bit like Blair (After many years) Cameron is an idiot who will most likely get us all killed in the end. Total Twat. Obviously my opinions would never influence H.M.G on my future career path, or where I would be deployed to next. And now I must start filling in the forms to claim welfare. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [July 8, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1460 "2011-07-08T22:35:33Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Sorry I’ve got to say this ,but the Lybian "Rebels"couldn’t fight their way out of a damp paper bag. > > Nor want to, they’re relying on putting up a noisy show, and then waiting for the Brits and the French to actually do the job for them. > > They are,to coin a phrase,Con Men. > > Cameron thinks that mostly,he’s going to get status as a world statesman, a bit like Blair > > (After many years) > > Cameron is an idiot who will most likely get us all killed in the end. > > Total Twat. > > Obviously my opinions would never influence H.M.G on my future career path, or where I would be deployed to next. > > And now I must start filling in the forms to claim welfare. Cameron will get me killed, probably very soon ,cos he is so thick. What a cunt. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=72) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=74)