# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 74
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1461 "2011-07-09T01:27:25Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The Beeb said something recently about the rebels awaiting some sort of uprising within Tripoli that their information leads them to expect. Once that occurs, they’ll move more quickly. They’ve been awaiting an uprising within Tripoli since before the uprising in Tripoli was crushed. If there is one city that Qaddaffi has control of, that’s it, and if the rebels want it, they’re going to have to go and take it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 9, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1462 "2011-07-09T01:30:30Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > Have been away on holiday and am still working my way through this thread. It’s an awfully long thread, with many twists and turns. Since you’re starting from scratch (You’ve been on holiday since February 16th? Must be nice. 🙂 ) You might want to just settle down and read it before you comment. ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1463 "2011-07-10T08:33:27Z")
i thought i had discovered a sight where people where informed about the true nature of things . libya has free education , free health care , and the social care for the people is at a level that you will never ever experience . they have gold reserves and their central bank actually belongs to libya. if you think that nato is in libya for the people , i would suggest they need to go to the usa to save the people there . the people of libya love him , he is corrupt , but he has not forgotten his people . he refuses to be a puppet for the usa . the bankcrazy governments established in most countries in the world , goes like this , allow the banks to cook the books and rules , announce the banks owe billions ? governments bail them out ,governments are broke , governments are bailed out , they get more broke , and the solutions are to follow the usa format which is privatized health care , where before it was free , introduce or increase the cost of education were before it was free or subsidized , increase taxation of the working class , while rich people and cooperations get tax cuts . reduce social funding of everything important to the people, sell of national assets , forest land , agricultural land , oil wells islands , reduce the police force , reduce public service , sell public infrastructure , increase the war budgets . reduce human budget . so my friends when the usa and nato countries have finished selling the nations assets , and all these nations are bankrupt , what next ? when all the forests are sold , how will the unemployed find shelter and feed themselves , who do all these nations and states owe the trillions too . you guys are living in a country , that is in debt , you do not even know how much the debt is , how the money was spent , how you are going to pay it back , at what interest , and worse of all who you owe the money to . greece has just been bailed out for the 2nd time , 1 of the conditions is for them to sell off virtually all the national assets . so in the next 3 years , would they have to sell the people ?. this is what you want for libya , this is your kind of freedom , bankcrazy slavery ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1464 "2011-07-10T08:46:11Z")
i thought i had discovered a sight where people where informed about the true nature of things . libya has free education , free health care , and the social care for the people is at a level that you will never ever experience . they have gold reserves and their central bank actually belongs to libya. if you think that nato is in libya for the people , i would suggest they need to go to the usa to save the people there . the people of libya love him , he is corrupt , but he has not forgotten his people . he refuses to be a puppet for the usa . the bankcrazy governments established in most countries in the world , goes like this , allow the banks to cook the books and rules , announce the banks owe billions ? governments bail them out ,governments are broke , governments are bailed out , they get more broke , and the solutions are to follow the usa format which is privatized health care , where before it was free , introduce or increase the cost of education were before it was free or subsidized , increase taxation of the working class , while rich people and cooperations get tax cuts . reduce social funding of everything important to the people, sell of national assets , forest land , agricultural land , oil wells islands , reduce the police force , reduce public service , sell public infrastructure , increase the war budgets . reduce human budget . so my friends when the usa and nato countries have finished selling the nations assets , and all these nations are bankrupt , what next ? when all the forests are sold , how will the unemployed find shelter and feed themselves , who do all these nations and states owe the trillions too . you guys are living in a country , that is in debt , you do not even know how much the debt is , how the money was spent , how you are going to pay it back , at what interest , and worse of all who you owe the money to . greece has just been bailed out for the 2nd time , 1 of the conditions is for them to sell off virtually all the national assets . so in the next 3 years , would they have to sell the people ?. this is what you want for libya , this is your kind of freedom , bankcrazy slavery ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1465 "2011-07-10T13:58:46Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > i thought i had discovered a sight where people where informed about the true nature of things . Perhaps not, but you have discovered a site where most members can spell. > [@mastermoves](#): > > the people of libya love him , he is corrupt , but he has not forgotten his people . he refuses to be a puppet for the usa . **Some** of the people love him, I have no doubt; but, the ongoing civil war was not provoked by foreign agitators as Gaddafi’s propaganda claims, it happened because and only because there are significant numbers who do not love him. ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1466 "2011-07-10T17:14:25Z")
hello brian i know my spelling is not up to scratch , it might get better , do you really belief nato’s propaganda instead ? do you trust cnn ? i have learnt never ever to trust the usa nor the uk or nato ,imf , world bank . and i do apologize for having a go at the site , people do differ in opinion and i should respect that , i believe we are all in the same boat , but nobody is talking about solutions anymore . ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1467 "2011-07-10T17:24:28Z")
I trust my buddy in Libya and I trust my buddies in Egypt more than I trust you, mastermoves. But you can keep believing whatever you like. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1468 "2011-07-10T18:11:17Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > hello brian i know my spelling is not up to scratch , it might get better , do you really belief nato’s propaganda instead ? do you trust cnn ? Certainly I do, and WRT to Middle-Eastern affairs I particularly trust CNN when it says the same thing as al-Jazeera – which it does, more or less, regarding the Libyan Civil War. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1469 "2011-07-10T18:12:20Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > hello brian i know my spelling is not up to scratch , it might get better , do you really belief nato’s propaganda instead ? do you trust cnn ? Certainly I do, and WRT to Middle-Eastern affairs I particularly trust CNN when it says the same thing as al-Jazeera – which it does, more or less, regarding the Libyan Civil War. What country are **you** from, **mastermoves?** ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1470 "2011-07-10T18:14:22Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > libya has free education , free health care , and the social care for the people is at a level that you will never ever experience You mean, a level so awful that it’s own people have to leave the country and go to other nations to get basic health care? If so you are probably correct and I will never experience having to go to Egypt to get taken care of. We’ve already covered your rehashed nonsense, with cites, by the way. [ > [@](#): > > His nation’s oil riches and tiny population — Libya has the world’s ninth largest known deposits and just 6.5 million people — allowed him to spend money freely on pet causes, including the Palestine Liberation Organization and a number of Islamic groups. Relatively little was spent on his people: a Gallup poll released last year showed that 29% of young Libyans were unemployed and 93% described their condition as “struggling” or “suffering.” > […] > Opportunism nicely defines Gaddafi in recent years. Beneath the bluster and buffoonery, he has shrewdly assessed where his best interests lie. In mid-2003, Libya finally accepted responsibility for the Pan Am bombing and agreed to pay up to $2.7 billion in compensation to the families of the victims. Gaddafi also admitted to having a nuclear-weapons program, which he then dismantled under international supervision. (The Bush Administration claimed he had been spooked by the invasion of Iraq.) In the years that followed, as Western nations — including the U.S. — normalized relations with Tripoli, foreign investment flooded into the country. > > But much of the new bounty was confined to a small circle, which included Gaddafi’s children. Most of his seven sons had acquired reputations for high living in Europe’s playgrounds for the rich ]([http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2055193,00.html](http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,2055193,00.html)) [ > [@](#): > > Mr Qaddafi did nothing for this region. Despite its oil wealth, the east appears devoid of infrastructure apart from its oil industry. Oil is stored in first-world depots, water in concrete pits. The only ships docking at Tobruk’s jetties are tankers, and despite the energy flow there are blackouts. So poor is health care that Libyans with enough money head to Egypt or Tunisia for treatment. An elderly teacher points out the spelling mistakes in the graffiti daubed across the town. Until recently, foreign languages were banned from the syllabus; they were enemy tongues, and talking politics with foreigners carried a three-year prison term. “None of us can speak English or French,” laments the teacher. “He kept us ignorant and blindfolded.” > > “All our wealth went abroad,” says a law student distributing food. “He built towers across Africa, but we don’t even have a playground.” Tobruk had a cinema, old-timers recall, but Mr Qaddafi closed it soon after taking power to guard against public gatherings. Without entertainment, the town shut down after dark. ]([Building a new Libya](http://www.economist.com/node/18239900)) > [@mastermoves](#): > > when all the forests are sold , how will the unemployed find shelter and feed themselves , This may, perhaps, be the best quote on the Dope. Ever. Suffice it to say, your understanding of international banking is… somewhat lacking. > [@mastermoves](#): > > greece has just been bailed out for the 2nd time , 1 of the conditions is for them to sell off virtually all the national assets . so in the next 3 years , would they have to sell the people ? I was wrong. This is probably the best quote on the Dope. Ever. Yes, the plan is that in 4 years’ time if the Greek economy has not improved, we’re going to send the entire population to the salt mines. I myself have put out tentative feelers to purchase two, perhaps three, attractive young, large-breasted Greek women with green eyes to serve as my concubines. I will also purchase one older, less attractive Greek citizen (gender does not matter) and I will force them to do my laundry and dishes. > [@mastermoves](#): > > bankcrazy slavery This, however, is probably the coolest phrase-said-in-seriousness on the Dope. Ever. Welcome, may your posting always be full of words. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1471 "2011-07-10T18:29:06Z")
[Rebels advance](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5i9jbd5tDAHv4Zfe_9ADI_jFShTYw?docId=CNG.a51e0ccb6c8ecb11fbc3a0a97df80911.361) west from Misrata on the loyalist-held town of [Zliten.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zliten) One small step closer to Tripoli if they take it. I dunno. I think it would make more sense at this point for the rebels to simultaneously push east from Misrata and west from Benghazi and take [Sirte.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sirte) Then, on the coast (where most Libyans live), Gaddafi would hold nothing but Tripoli; and it would then be a simple matter to cut Tripoli’s supply-lines from [Sabha](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabha_%28city%29) in the southern desert. Surrounded on all sides, blocked from the sea by NATO, how long could Tripoli hold out? But, that’s just one keyboard general’s opinion. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1472 "2011-07-10T18:38:22Z")
[Overview map of Libya](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:2011_Libyan_Civil_War.png) showing government- and rebel-held areas. [Map of the Tripolitanian front.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tripolitanian_Front.svg) [Map of the Gulf of Sidra region.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Gulf_of_Sirt_Front.svg) ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1473 "2011-07-10T18:57:03Z")
I am glad to see that there are people that continue to refuse to accept the validity of Christendom’s war of aggression against the proud and sovereign nation of Libya. Equally reassuring is the fact that many governments refuse to be hoodwinked by the West into seeing this as anything more than an illegal and unconscionable application of force (essentially, schoolyard bullying on a far more global and catastrophic level). For instance, the Russian Federation recently pointed out that the French policy of arming the Libyan traitors constitutes a material breach of applicable Security Council resolutions, and is thus an illegal act in contravention of its international obligations: > **[Libya: Russia decries French arms drop to Libya rebels](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-13979632)** > > Russia's foreign minister describes France's arms drop to Libyan rebels as a "crude violation" of UN resolution 1970, echoing African Union criticism. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1474 "2011-07-10T19:03:10Z")
Readers should be aware that Commissar is on record stating that nobody can ever say that anything is against international law and is an illegal act unless an international judicial body has already ruled on that specific instance. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1475 "2011-07-10T19:06:57Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I am glad to see that there are people that continue to refuse to accept the validity of Christendom’s war of aggression against the proud and sovereign nation of Libya. Not **yet,** it ain’t. When this becomes a Vietnam-like situation you’ll know it. At present, they’re having a purely homegrown civil war, and the West likes one side better than the other and therefore is helping it, but nobody’s even thinking yet about moving in and taking over the whole show. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1476 "2011-07-10T19:25:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Not **yet,** it ain’t. When this becomes a Vietnam-like situation you’ll know it. At present, they’re having a purely homegrown civil war, and the West likes one side better than the other and therefore is helping it, but nobody’s even thinking yet about moving in and taking over the whole show. I am a bit confused as to your overall point in the statement quoted. Are you arguing that it is not a “war” if the military action is limited to massive aerial bombardment? If so, I’m afraid that I can’t agree with you there. It hardly matters to the slaughtered innocent civilians whether Christendom kills them with a cruise missile or with a bayonet… The current absence of large divisions of Western troops on the ground (do keep in mind that reliable reports have already confirmed small bands of Western forces operating in traitor-held cities) hardly means that the West is not at war with Libya. There’s more than one way to cast a shadow of bloodthirsty regional hegemony, you know. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1477 "2011-07-10T19:39:12Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > I am a bit confused as to your overall point in the statement quoted. Are you arguing that it is not a “war” if the military action is limited to massive aerial bombardment? If so, I’m afraid that I can’t agree with you there. It hardly matters to the slaughtered innocent civilians whether Christendom kills them with a cruise missile or with a bayonet… The current absence of large divisions of Western troops on the ground (do keep in mind that reliable reports have already confirmed small bands of Western forces operating in traitor-held cities) hardly means that the West is not at war with Libya. There’s more than one way to cast a shadow of bloodthirsty regional hegemony, you know. No, my point is that not all foreign interventions are the same. There are differences in degree and in kind. One important factor is whether the foreigners are intervening on the popular or the unpopular side of the civil war. In Vietnam the U.S. intervened on the unpopular side, as evidenced by the fact that the Viet Cong, losing battle after battle, could keep the war going and going because it never had any problem making up its losses with enthusiastic fresh recruits. In Libya, Gaddafi’s government clearly is the unpopular side, as evidenced by the fact that he has to rely on foreign mercenaries to fight a civil war in his own country, while his enemies are ordinary civilian Libyans taking up arms for the first time and with great enthusiasm. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1478 "2011-07-10T19:47:59Z")
Wait. The rebels are Christians? Wow. I thought only Jack Chick thought Muslims were a super-secret conspiracy of the Roman church. Actually, as has been shown before, the rebels happen to be Muslims. A for “bloodthirsty regional hegemony,” well, that’d be the _modus operandi_ of the CCCR, which thankfully is no loner with us. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2011, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1479 "2011-07-10T19:59:16Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > A for “bloodthirsty regional hegemony,” well, that’d be the _modus operandi_ of the CCCR, which thankfully is no loner with us. And if it were I don’t think even **they** would be standing up for Gaddafi right now – at least, no more than the halfassed way Russia is. ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1480 "2011-07-11T10:14:42Z")
some guys are saying that gadafi has not really done much for his country , well i bet there is far more homeless people there then usa , and if you say their health service is crap , it is still better than the usa in regards to the souls who do not have health cover . your solution to libya is the iraq medication method, the people of iraq are singing your praises how you have come to free them . a lot of people talk like generals in an army , but no consideration of human life , its like as long as you guys are safe in america everything else is just strategy and politics . human suffering does not come into the equations . iam saying stop the killings , muder , destruction of other nations . the feedback iam getting is i should not be trusted . you guys talk of communism , socialism , democracy , in all political forms , the average human is still downtrodden and ruled , with their freedom restricted . it is a tragedy , do you have to wait for death to knock on your door before you begin to wake up from your comfort zone . does it matter if iam black or white , russian , american , british , or arab , does it matter if iam xtian or not , does it matter what political party i support how can we justify killing people on differences , how can we justify the strong over the weak . humans are suffering all over the world , mass starvation in north korea . and other places , meanwhile some people are joking of buying greek people when they are up for aution . meanwhile even in the usa your national assets are being sold , and people are losing their jobs and homes . but as long as yours is safe. you do not care , after all its only politics . the difference between you and the humans suffering now is just a time scale . you will in time feel the heat . do not worry , we will welcome you when your time is up cnn where quick to broadcast weapons of mass destruction , when it came to saddams iraq , and report every soldier killed over there , but when it came to report about the occupation of iraq and the millions of people killed , and treated like shit in their own country we hear nothing , of the american and even russian contractors awarded contracts involving from re equiping the iraq army to the rebuilding of the destroyed infrastructure we hear nothing . we hear nothing about how the iraqi people feel about the occupation , it is not important . all we hear is if the us pulls out more terrorist would spring up , a danger to the world , and my views are crazy , they cannot be true . absolute power corrupts , we are living in a corrupt world , you will never get the truth from these controlled media . [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=73) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=75)