# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 75
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1481 "2011-07-11T10:58:16Z")
as a man , the foundation of life for me is water, food , shelter ,women , and enjoying this world . to live in peace . the wish of all just men should be to be treat others just like they themselves would like to be treated . a just man would place himself in the position of the weak , would a just man be happy for his country to be occupied . only if it is to offer freedom from his slavery . would a just man want to buy people , would he himself want to be sold . would a just man support the invasion of countries , would he want his country invaded. when people talk about iraq and libya , try to put yourselves in the position of the innocent people who have not ask for this , just like you are innocent from the activities of your government . you guys just want to live , so do them , they are people like you , not numbers in a political debate . soldiers are meant to protect a peoples freedom against enemy forces . when did civilians become insurgents and enemies of peace because they dare raise their voices against oppression of their freedom . if the american soldiers liberated iraq , why are they still there . why are the american government meddling with their affairs . job done the people are free from saddam , thank you , you can go home now. but no , the americans know what is best for the iraqi people and the libyan people , the soldiers are heroes , the cause is just , it is so just that when the soldiers return the government look after these men has heroes . you will find numerous veterans homeless . with no medical cover , no future . or iam just making it up as usual . before you guys talk about the best approach to libya , maybe you should visit iraq and check out the american cure of the saddam solution ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1482 "2011-07-11T11:13:08Z")
brain , your debate on the assumption that the libyans do not want gadafi, what if this info was staged , remember gadafi was trying to get the african oil nations not to accept the dollar .also remember that the rebel created central bank was immediately accepted by nato as legitimate . that is why they want him out asap. he was stirring things up for nato and the us . if you keep on relying on cnn , you will have the opinion of the aggressors . in all 3rd world countries and latin america , the usa and nato have always supported the governments that plunder its resources for the gain of nato and america . ask people from eucador, argentina , venezula , if you seek some truth ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1483 "2011-07-11T11:19:34Z")
The majority of Libyans do not want Gaddaffi - that’s not an assumption, that’s a stone-cold fact. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1484 "2011-07-11T12:00:40Z")
Assuming Mastermoves is Latin America, a word mate: Africa ain’t Latin America, and the actual democratic leadership in Africa - the ones elected, bloody well hate Qaddafi. He’s fucked around Africa funding all kinds of insurgencies and right nasty dictators to the great detriment of the well-being of the average Africa, that other than the whores he’s funding, no one wants him. Save your knee-jerk anti-Western conspiracy theories for your own part of the world. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1485 "2011-07-11T16:50:25Z")
I also believe [this:](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5izeSNUF_rRCmOfmyFZ9fLKSDLuNg?docId=CNG.96f2bd1e98958899d20ad090a8aeefc5.51) > [@](#): > > GUALISH, Libya — Scores of youths who fled towns and cities held by Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi’s forces have joined rebels on the front line in the Nafusa mountains, armed with local knowledge and enthusiasm. > > The youths from around Tripoli, Zawiyah and Gharyan have trekked long distances to deliver information and moral support to rebel fighters in Libya’s western mountains. > > The majority of the recruits have never held a gun and have scant military training but say they have acquired a taste for freedom and the will to fight. > > Shenber, a 27-year-old computer scientist from Tripoli, braved the desert for a whole day to reach a port, take a boat, enter Tunisia without papers and return to the front line southwest of the capital. > > “I had to leave the county illegally to avoid loyalist forces catching me. There are channels to help youths from Kadhafi-controlled towns to join the combatants,” he said. > > Once in Zintan, the nerve centre in western Libya of the rebellion, he received 10 days of training before being snatched by the military and sent to the battle of Gualish. > > “They gave me a gun, which I had never used. I am not a good shot. I am only an engineer. I was afraid but I felt free. I am never turning back,” said Shenber. > > Originally from Gharyan, 50 kilometres (30 miles) from the front, the young man withheld his last name to avoid reprisals against his family, like others who have trickled in alone or in groups. > > Many of them are from the Nafusa mountains where they have friends and families, and are welcomed with open arms despite their inexperience. Maybe with the help of these local boys, the rebels can take [Gharyan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gharyan) – which would cut the lines of supply/communication between Tripoli and Gaddafi’s southern stronghold of [Sabha,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabha_(city)) and once that happens, victory is in sight. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1486 "2011-07-11T16:52:12Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > The majority of Libyans do not want Gaddaffi - that’s not an assumption, that’s a stone-cold fact. FYI, **mastermoves,** since you’re new here: **Bibliovore** is the only Doper to appear in this thread so far who is actually Libyan. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1487 "2011-07-11T17:17:20Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > The majority of Libyans do not want Gaddaffi - that’s not an assumption, that’s a stone-cold fact. Really? Well, that’s news to me. How was this “stone-cold fact” proven? Did you canvass every man, woman, and child in Libya using a carefully-written, scrupulously neutral poll to discover their true desires and beliefs? Look, we all understand the strength of your convictions, but this does not somehow give you the power to dictate reality. I strongly support the Colonel, but I will not claim that most Libyans support him. There is no way for me to know that and, in the absence of knowledge, I would rather not make unsubstantiated claims. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > FYI, **mastermoves,** since you’re new here: **Bibliovore** is the only Doper to appear in this thread so far who is actually Libyan. And he’s also swallowed the Libyan traitors’ position hook, line, and sinker, so he is hardly a a neutral source on the subject. He’s no less partisan than I am, and hence his arguments should be taken with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1488 "2011-07-11T19:08:44Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > And he’s also swallowed the Libyan traitors’ position hook, line, and sinker, so he is hardly a a neutral source on the subject. He’s no less partisan than I am, and hence his arguments should be taken with a grain of salt. Yes, well, every civil war has at least two sides. But it would be interesting to talk to somebody here who is pro-Gaddafi **and** Libyan; haven’t seen any, yet. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1489 "2011-07-11T19:35:52Z")
[**Libya: A campaign built on sand**](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/africaandindianocean/libya/8629138/Libya-A-campaign-built-on-sand.html) > [@](#): > > …It did not seem to matter to Mr Cameron and his principal allies in the anti-Gaddafi campaign that the main purpose of UN Security Council resolution 1973, which provided the legal justification for military action, was to protect anti-Gaddafi rebels from the possibility of being massacred by forces loyal to their leader. > > Together with French President Nicolas Sarkozy and US President Barack Obama, Mr Cameron demanded that the military offensive would end only when Gaddafi was removed from power, so confident was he in the operation’s likely outcome. At a stroke an operation conceived on the basis of liberal interventionism had been transformed into one determined to achieve regime change. > > And it is to this end that Nato has undertaken a sophisticated bombing campaign designed as much to intensify the pressure on Gaddafi’s regime to give up its vice-like grip on power as to protect Libya’s civilian population. Apart from taking out Gaddafi’s air defences and launching thousands of raids against pro-Gaddafi forces, the campaign has increasingly targeted the regime itself, bombing the Libyan dictator’s Bab al-Azizia barracks and vital fuel supply lines. > > Yet, more than three months into the Nato offensive, Gaddafi remains as resolutely in power in Tripoli today as he was when the first bombs were dropped in March. In recent days, we have seen the extent of the support he continues to enjoy when thousands of his own supporters turned out in Tripoli to hear an address by the Libyan leader… ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1490 "2011-07-11T22:42:12Z")
He will continue to appear as resolutely in power until about ten seconds before he is overturned. You expected any different? He’s going. One way or another, he’s going. The people have the ability now. And the training. And the experience. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1491 "2011-07-12T05:02:38Z")
[We’re gonna let the **Russians** handle this?!](http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gfwvoLc0X_ANOApydqtQ0uXRyTjQ?docId=cf8a3d5b742d48f0a8083213b199cf11) > [@](#): > > WASHINGTON (AP) — The White House says President Barack Obama told Russian President Dmitri Medvedev that the U.S. is prepared to support Russian-led negotiations in Libya. > > However, Obama told the Russian president the U.S. would only back the negotiations if they lead to a democratic transition and longtime Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi steps aside. > > Medvedev has joined the West in urging Gadhafi to step down, and envoys from the Kremlin have traveled to Libya to meet with representatives of Gadhafi’s government. Well, I guess, among foreign countries, the Russians do have the most credibility in the eyes of Libya’s old guard. Could work. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1492 "2011-07-12T06:01:24Z")
To mediate, you need at least a moderate and preferably a neutral stance. The US certainly couldn’t do it — not when they’re involved in the bombing. Why not the Russians? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2011, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1493 "2011-07-12T18:58:53Z")
[Emmissaries tell the French that Gaddafi is ready to go.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/201171214412794693.html) > [@](#): > > France’s foreign minister says his country has had “contact” with emissaries from the Libyan leadership concerning the departure of Muammar Gaddafi. > > “There are contacts but it’s not a negotiation proper at this stage,” Alain Juppe told France Info radio station on Tuesday. > > “Everybody is in contact with everybody. The Libyan regime is sending messengers everywhere, to Turkey, New York, Paris.” > > “Emissaries are telling us Gaddafi is ready to go, let’s talk about it.” > > Juppe did not say who the emissaries were but Bernard Valero, the French foreign ministry spokesman, said: "These are emissaries who say they are coming in the name of Gaddafi. > > “What is important is that we send them the same message and stay in close contact with our allies on this.” > > Also speaking on Tuesday, Francois Fillon, the French prime minister, told a parliamentary commission: “A political solution [for Libya] is more than ever indispensable and is beginning to take shape.” > > Fillon spoke before the French parliament ahead of a vote that saw the European country agree to extend its military operation in Libya. > > The National Assembly voted overwhelmingly to grant further funding for the operation - nearly four months after French planes started bombing troops loyal to Gaddafi in eastern Libya - with 482 deputies voting in favour and 27 against. Too good to be true? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1494 "2011-07-14T05:54:04Z")
[Gaddafi forces retake Qawalish (100 km south of Tripoli); the rebels immediately re-retake it.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/201171319645404106.html) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1495 "2011-07-14T21:54:54Z")
[Gaddafi threaten to blow up Tripoli if it falls.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/kremlin-envoy-to-libya-reportedly-says-gadhafi-threatens-to-blow-up-tripoli-if-it-falls/2011/07/14/gIQAGvSYEI_story.html) :eek: Not something I’ve even heard of since Hitler issued orders Speer refused to carry out! > [@](#): > > MOSCOW — A Russian newspaper is quoting the Kremlin’s special envoy to Libya as saying Moammar Gadhafi has threatened to blow up Tripoli if it falls into rebel hands. > > Mikhail Margelov is quoted in Thursday’s edition of the Izvestia newspaper as saying Libyan Prime Minister Al-Baghdadi al-Mahmudi recently told him, “If the rebels seize the city, we will deluge it with missiles and blow it up.” > > Margelov also is cited as saying: “I presume that the Gadhafi regime has a suicidal plan of this kind.” > > The civil war in Libya appears to have hit a stalemate, despite a protracted NATO bombing campaign against Gadhafi-loyal forces under a U.N. mandate on protecting civilians. Margelov has been a mediator in the standoff. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1496 "2011-07-14T21:59:28Z")
[Rebels capture demoralized Gaddafi troops.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/jul/14/libya-gaddafi-troops-demoralised-prisoners-of-war) > [@](#): > > Some said they were promised an escape from poverty if they fought for Muammar Gaddafi, but never saw the cash. Some, thrown into the frontline with no military experience, suggested that Gaddafi’s forces were running short on resources and morale. > > Aged between 17 and 47, all said they surrendered meekly a week ago when Gaddafi’s army was forced to retreat from a village in Libya’s western mountains. They are detained in the rebel stronghold of Zintan at a school converted into a makeshift prison which now houses 147 inmates – of whom 25 are foreign nationals, officials say. > > The six men were black and said they all had roots in neighbouring Mali and Niger, although some had been born in Libya and had Libyan citizenship. They did not conform to widespread reports of mercenaries travelling from abroad specifically to serve the regime. Many were recruited from the southern Libyan city of Sabha, a Gaddafi stronghold. > > The youngest was Issa Yousef, 17, a student and steelworker of Malian origin who joined a month ago. Speaking through an interpreter, he said: “They said we’ll give you money when this attack has finished: 1,000 dinars (£500) a month and Libyan citizenship.” He never saw either. > > One night last week the group was sent to the village of Qawalish, about 60 miles south of Tripoli, to face the increasingly confident rebels of the western mountains. They said they joined around 200 government troops and were armed with Kalashnikovs. But they claimed that, because of their race, they were treated differently and denied other equipment. > > When rebels launched a surprise attack on the village the following morning, the men were lost in the confusion. “We didn’t know who is Gaddafi army and who is revolutionary,” one said. > > They said they gave up their Kalashnikovs without a fight. They had been well treated by their captors, they added, although it was impossible to verify this independently. > > Gaddafi’s forces have been losing ground in the Nafusa mountains in recent weeks. The six inmates painted a picture of decay and desperation as rebel offensives and Nato bombing take their toll. > > “Gaddafi’s army is weak,” said Hassan Mohamed, 25, of Nigerian descent. “They don’t have equipment or a lot of money. After seven months they still didn’t pay me. Most soldiers have deserted, some escaped, some left, some stayed. It’s so bad.” > > None expressed passion for the cause or a desire to return. Mohammad Ismail Al-Amin, 47, a Libyan citizen of Malian origin, said: “Now I like the revolution because all the world is with it. I regret joining Gaddafi. I left my children.” > > Mohammad Abdou Al-Rahman, 22, said: "I like the revolution but I don’t hate Muammar Gaddafi. **I don’t feel anything about him."** 😃 I think those are the words a tyrant hates and fears most of all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1497 "2011-07-14T22:04:08Z")
And, things are about to heat up again in the East – [rebels plan to assault Brega (again) tonight or Friday morning.](http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/16412/World/Region/-Libya-rebels-poised-for-Brega-attack.aspx) ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1498 "2011-07-15T00:25:26Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > To mediate, you need at least a moderate and preferably a neutral stance. The US certainly couldn’t do it — not when they’re involved in the bombing. Why not the Russians? Russia in many cases works against American interests. I’d say some fairly obscure and neutral (but America-friendly) country like say Chile might be a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1499 "2011-07-15T02:08:49Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Russia in many cases works against American interests. I’d say some fairly obscure and neutral (but America-friendly) country like say Chile might be a good idea. Russia is almost the only country with which Gaddafi was on speaking terms before the civil war started and remains so now – that’s why they’re handling this. Why should Gaddafi talk to a Chilean? And what “American interests” are in play here anyway?! ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1500 "2011-07-15T02:38:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Russia is almost the only country with which Gaddafi was on speaking terms before the civil war started and remains so now – that’s why they’re handling this. Why should Gaddafi talk to a Chilean? The US had diplomatic relations with Libya when the civil war started so they were on “speaking terms”. > [@](#): > > And what “American interests” are in play here anyway?! Getting rid of Gadaffi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=74) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=76)