# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 76
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1501 "2011-07-15T02:44:43Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Getting rid of Gadaffi. You can’t possibly mean the Russians want him to stay. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1502 "2011-07-15T07:23:22Z")
Up until they intervened, it was a pretty pathetically minimal interest. Anyway, no, the purpose of Russia’s foreign policy is not to make life difficult for the United States, and their stance toward Libya is arguably less kind than their stance toward the US (I haven’t heard Medvedev calling for Obama to step down, at least.) They agreed to abstain on the UNSC resolution that allowed intervention, so the US really has no plausible reason to reject their involvement. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 7:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1503 "2011-07-15T07:29:19Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Russia in many cases works against American interests. That’s going to be true of any country that isn’t an outright American puppet. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1504 "2011-07-15T14:02:29Z")
😕[OK, this is weird.](http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/africa/07/15/libya.gadhafi/) > [@](#): > > Tripoli, Libya (CNN) – The Libyan government is claiming that NATO and anti-government rebels were carrying out a coordinated air, sea and land attack on the strategic town of al-Brega, but the alliance sloughed off the assertion. > > “NATO’s mission is to prevent attacks and threats against civilians and that is what we are doing,” an alliance statement said on Friday. "NATO has no military forces on the ground and no direct contact with opposition forces. > > “However, we do receive information from allied sources in Libya. We take this information into account to ensure that our actions are consistent with our U.N.-mandated mission to protect civilians.” > > In an unexpected late-night appearance before a hastily assembled group of journalists, a Libyan government spokesman on Thursday called the attack “heavy, merciless and surprising.” > > CNN was not able to reach anyone from NATO or the Transitional National Council, based out of the opposition-held eastern Libyan city of Benghazi, to confirm reports of the al-Brega attack. Weirder still: > [@](#): > > The government spokesman, Musa Ibrahim, also issued a warning that he said he hoped would make headlines around the world. > > “We will die for oil. We will kill for oil,” Ibrahim said. “We will kill everyone who comes near our oil. Rebels, NATO, we don’t care. We will defend our oil to the last drop of blood that we have.” Pssst! Hey! Musa! People can **hear** you! ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1505 "2011-07-15T15:47:21Z")
The U.S. [just recognized the rebel forces](http://news.yahoo.com/u-recognizes-rebels-libya-legitimate-government-125455845.html)as the legitimate government of Libya. **Bibliovore,** hang onto your hat! ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1506 "2011-07-15T16:15:38Z")
Thanks \*\*Eva \*\*- I’m always optimistic! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1507 "2011-07-15T16:35:48Z")
> [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > The U.S. [just recognized the rebel forces](http://news.yahoo.com/u-recognizes-rebels-libya-legitimate-government-125455845.html)as the legitimate government of Libya. > > **Bibliovore,** hang onto your hat! Keep in mind that the rebel leadership is no more the result of democratic elections than the Colonel’s government is. By pretending to support democratic movements while at the same time seeking to legitimize non-democratic criminal organizations, the Empire once again reveals its rank hypocrisy for all to see. I, for one, am not fooled by the charade. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1508 "2011-07-15T16:39:21Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Keep in mind that the rebel leadership is no more the result of democratic elections than the Colonel’s government is. Of course not. How **could** it be, under present circumstances?! No time for elections or anything. Everybody running local governments and everybody in the rebel leadership is simply a volunteer nobody found too objectionable. OTOH, no volunteer was in a position to force the people to take him – the rebels are way short of being organized enough to impose any kind of tyranny in the areas they hold – so the present leaders can at least claim a democratic mandate in that negative sense. Which distinguishes them from the Gaddafi side. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1509 "2011-07-15T17:02:31Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Of course not. How **could** it be, under present circumstances?! No time for elections or anything. Everybody running local governments and everybody in the rebel leadership is simply a volunteer nobody found too objectionable. OTOH, no volunteer was in a position to force the people to take him – the rebels are way short of being organized enough to impose any kind of tyranny in the areas they hold – so the present leaders can at least claim a democratic mandate in that negative sense. Which distinguishes them from the Gaddafi side. Negative democracy? :dubious: I would think that’s rather a betrayal of your principles, right there. Once you begin arguing that democracy does not actually require any voting, you really can’t stop any two-bit dictator from passing himself off as a democratic leader. I wouldn’t go down that path, were I in your shoes. Also, I like how you dismissively assume that the traitors are unable to impose their will upon the communities they control without community support. Really? You cannot think of a single situation in which an armed mob with a lot of guns is able to lord it over a civilian population sans popular support? ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1510 "2011-07-15T18:16:09Z")
Yeah, **BrainGlutton**. The only way you can legitimately overthrow a dictator is by having elections while the fighting is going on. How could you forget these things? ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1511 "2011-07-15T18:25:45Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Yeah, **BrainGlutton**. The only way you can legitimately overthrow a dictator is by having elections while the fighting is going on. How could you forget these things? There’s a “Hanging Chad” joke in here somewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1512 "2011-07-15T18:49:31Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Keep in mind that the rebel leadership is no more the result of democratic elections than the Colonel’s government is. By pretending to support democratic movements while at the same time seeking to legitimize non-democratic criminal organizations, the Empire once again reveals its rank hypocrisy for all to see. I, for one, am not fooled by the charade. I’m a grownup, thank you, and quite capable of forming my own opinions about who sucks more in Libya. As it would be difficult to suck more than Qadaffi, I’ll give the new guys a chance to show their stuff before dismissing them out of hand. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1513 "2011-07-15T19:55:57Z")
> [@Bob Ducca](#): > > There’s a “Hanging Chad” joke in here somewhere. _Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me!_ has already done it, I’m afraid. (In regard to the last Afghan election, someone said roughly, “They take their elections very seriously in Afghanistan. When there’s a hanging chad, they’re literally hanging someone named Chad.”) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1514 "2011-07-15T21:28:44Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > Yeah, **BrainGlutton**. The only way you can legitimately overthrow a dictator is by having elections while the fighting is going on. How could you forget these things? Why, it’s _almost_ as if Commissar wanted a tyrant like Quadaffi in charge, despite the fact that the economic status of his people is dismal in terms of unemployment, health care, access to basic services, etc… and as he supports totalitarianism, he believes that people have no right to vote to change their government and that they can in fact be murdered simply for asking for freedom and democracy. And then if they exercise the only possible alternative open to them at that point and attempt violent revolution, then by gum they’re in the wrong for not holding elections (and also they’re “criminals” for not just shutting up and accepting that any strongman who seizes power is now their God Given Ruler). And if they were somehow to hold elections, why, then they’d still be invalid because they couldn’t include the citizens of areas still held by a nation’s totalitarian government. You damned hypocrite Empire Empire Empire Empire Empire Glorious!, you. Almost as if the argument itself is a game and a series of rationalizations. Curiouser and curiouser. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1515 "2011-07-15T21:31:23Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Also, I like how you dismissively assume that the traitors are unable to impose their will upon the communities they control without community support. :dubious: I don’t dismissively assume it, I know it from news reports. **Reliable** ones like CNN and al-Jazeera English. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1516 "2011-07-15T21:39:12Z")
**BrainGlutton** : Would you be interested in a “gentlemen’s bet” to the effect that Commissar’s goingto call al-Jazeera part of “Christendom”? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1517 "2011-07-15T22:01:42Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > **BrainGlutton** : Would you be interested in a “gentlemen’s bet” to the effect that Commissar’s goingto call al-Jazeera part of “Christendom”? :mad: Well, he won’t **now,** dammit! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1518 "2011-07-15T22:17:17Z")
[As of five hours ago, still fighting for Brega.](http://english.alarabiya.net/articles/2011/07/15/157780.html) ([Brega.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brega)) > [@](#): > > Libya’s rebels stepped up an assault on the eastern oil town of Brega on Friday, claiming good progress although three rebels were killed at the front and scores more returned wounded. > > A day after launching a three-pronged attack from Ajdabiya, the strategic town 80 kilometers (50 miles) further to the east, the rebels said they had captured one of Muammar Qaddafi’s soldiers and 10 vehicles. > > “There is fighting taking place to the north (of the main road between Ajdabiya and Brega) and the south and the middle,” said spokesman Mohammed Zawi. > > “We are making good progress in the north. The fighters there can see Brega. We are within sight of Brega,” Mr. Zawi said. > > Radio chatter from Colonel Qaddafi’s forces showed them asking for reinforcements and for people to come and collect the dead and wounded in the north. Whatever Gaddafi spokesmen might say, that don’t sound much like a full-on, NATO-coordinated-and-supported assault to **me!** ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1519 "2011-07-15T23:12:23Z")
The US government has recognized the rebels as the legitimate government of Libya: [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/world/africa/16libya.html?\_r=1&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/world/africa/16libya.html?_r=1&hp) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1520 "2011-07-15T23:15:57Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > The US government has recognized the rebels as the legitimate government of Libya: > > [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/world/africa/16libya.html?\_r=1&hp](http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/16/world/africa/16libya.html?_r=1&hp) Scooped upthread: > [@Eva\_Luna](#): > > The U.S. [just recognized the rebel forces](http://news.yahoo.com/u-recognizes-rebels-libya-legitimate-government-125455845.html)as the legitimate government of Libya. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=75) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=77)