# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 77
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1521 "2011-07-15T23:18:24Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Scooped upthread: Oops, sorry. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1522 "2011-07-15T23:28:49Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :mad: Well, he won’t **now,** dammit! Don’t be too sure. He’s called the secular-European nations’ assault, backed by the Islamic Arab League, “the forces of Christendom”. One wonders at the reason for such Glorious Glorious Glorious inflammatory and inaccurate phrasing Empire Empire Empire Empire. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1523 "2011-07-15T23:45:09Z")
[Rebels breach Brega.](http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/world/07/15/11/libya-rebels-breach-brega-spokesman) > [@](#): > > BENGHAZI - Libya’s rebels said a light mobile force had breached the strategically vital oil town of Brega late Friday, before pulling back in anticipation of a renewed offensive at daybreak. > > Mohammed Zawi, a spokesman for the rebel army, told AFP a group of reconnaissance troops had entered the city from the north, then pulled back four kilometers (2.5 miles) before midnight (2200 GMT). > > The probing raid deep into Kadhafi-held territory came around 32 hours after the rebel command launched a three-pronged attack to wrest control of the town back from Moamer Kadhafi’s troops, who were thought to have numbered around 3,000. > > While the rebels’ forward position to the north was four kilometers from the town center, a second unit attacking from due east of Brega faced stiffer resistance and was about 10-20 kilometers (six to 12 miles) from the town. > > “Most of Kadhafi’s troops seem to be at the centre,” said Zawi. > > Rebels were trying to dispose of more than 100 landmines placed around the town, to make way for heavy artillery. If they take it, and hold it this time, can’t be much longer before Sirte falls. ---
**Author:** ![Commissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c68b51/32.png) [@Commissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Commissar)\ **Post date:** [July 15, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1524 "2011-07-15T23:59:58Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > :dubious: I don’t dismissively assume it, I know it from news reports. **Reliable** ones like CNN and al-Jazeera English. Just so we are clear, you are stating that “reliable newspapers” have informed you that it is impossible for people with guns to assert power over civilians that would not otherwise have consented to the exercise of such power? I rather suspect that you need to go back and reread my previous posts, for I doubt that you can be serious in such an assertion. ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1525 "2011-07-16T00:58:27Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Rebels breach Brega.](http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/global-filipino/world/07/15/11/libya-rebels-breach-brega-spokesman) > > If they take it, and hold it this time, can’t be much longer before Sirte falls. A) “If”. B) Weren’t we all thinking that last time? (Okay, being fair, the back-and-forth has clearly settled way down.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1526 "2011-07-16T01:27:44Z")
> [@Commissar](#): > > Just so we are clear, you are stating that “reliable newspapers” have informed you that it is impossible for people with guns to assert power over civilians that would not otherwise have consented to the exercise of such power? No, of course not, Gaddafi himself has been doing exactly that for decades with amazing success until recently; but they have informed me that nothing of the kind has happened in **rebel** -held Libya; and that the all-volunteer rebel government and army have far too little organization distinct from the general populace to **enforce** anything on the general populace or to do anything at all without its support. Even tax collection has got to be largely a pass-the-hat thing, at this point. ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 8:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1527 "2011-07-16T08:32:50Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Why, it’s _almost_ as if Commissar wanted a tyrant like Quadaffi in charge, despite the fact that the economic status of his people is dismal in terms of unemployment, health care, access to basic services, etc… and as he supports totalitarianism, he believes that people have no right to vote to change their government and that they can in fact be murdered simply for asking for freedom and democracy. And then if they exercise the only possible alternative open to them at that point and attempt violent revolution, then by gum they’re in the wrong for not holding elections (and also they’re “criminals” for not just shutting up and accepting that any strongman who seizes power is now their God Given Ruler). And if they were somehow to hold elections, why, then they’d still be invalid because they couldn’t include the citizens of areas still held by a nation’s totalitarian government. > You damned hypocrite Empire Empire Empire Empire Empire Glorious!, you. > > Almost as if the argument itself is a game and a series of rationalizations. > Curiouser and curiouser. are you guys talking about the usa because your economy is really bad . governments are the creations of indirect rule by the elites to govern the people and protect the interest of the elite . democratic government gives the added illusion that the government is controlled by the choices people make . when was the last time any nato government included the usa has done anything to improve the ecenomical standard of living for the people . they have instead for the last 30 years , build up the rights of multinationals , outsource jobs, deregulated banks , bailouts . Is there actually any polices , the governments are hatching that will bring back the economy . yes — cuts , cuts – cuts on social spending . pamper multinationals ----go out and outsource more , save your billions do not pay tax . over regulate skill sets you need a certificate costing this to pratice . and all seem to spend , spend spend on millitary weapons . democracy is as totallarian as gadafi’s regime . they were never created in the first place by the elites to protect the people . they were set up to protect the elites . a simple test , is there any desires or help the elites who run these multinationals need from the government that is not provided for them . are the elites worse of in this recession , are they being looked after by the government . now what about the non elite , the masses . is there anything you might need . to make things better? . will the government do it for you . what will you like . write a letter to your local rep . that might help . the people have no voice . Then every four years they get to choose , between mr elite or mr elite . Then they are supposed to shut up for another four years . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1528 "2011-07-16T22:44:51Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > are you guys talking about the usa because your economy is really bad . > governments are the creations of indirect rule by the elites to govern the people and protect the interest of the elite . . . . **mastermoves,** you obviously feel very strongly about . . . something, but from your rants it is very difficult to tell what you are **for.** Democracy? Communism? Socialism? Anarchism? Fascism? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1529 "2011-07-16T22:54:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > **mastermoves,** you obviously feel very strongly about . . . something, but from your rants it is very difficult to tell what you are **for.** Democracy? Communism? Socialism? Anarchism? Fascism? Democratic communal anarchofascism! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1530 "2011-07-16T23:04:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Democratic communal anarchofascism! Fuck **that** shit! Patrio-Pyschotic Anarcho-Materialism! “Every yard a kingdom, every child and dog a serf!” ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1531 "2011-07-17T01:58:38Z")
no iam not into governments they are all just illusions , created by the elites to control the people . this is what i have been trying to tell you . once they are in power , there is no recognition of the masses , the masses can rant all they like . democracy is not about voting in people into office democracy is about the people having a voice over the issues in their lives . issues that effect the whole society . a government for the masses , not just the rich this will not happen until the people create their own government , take it off these imposters .a government to serve the masses , can not be created and run by rich men close down the white house , the government has nothing for the people , except bullets dismantle the whole political structure and start afresh . all decisions to have the mandate of the people get rid of lawyers , and accountnats there would be less laws created , there will be real laws that a five year old can understand no accountants — they make 1$ look like a million then put a limit on the the power and money that any citizen can acqire . one simple political house , to dicuss , not to pass laws , but to inform the people of what is going on for them to make informed decisions where people do not have to rant a government , where the people are actually part of it . not a government , i see as an enemy , that will not hesistate to lock me up or even shoot me down because i wanted to rant ,for not listening to me in the first place. there is no type ofgovernment in place today , that serves the people . when you find one let me know . ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1532 "2011-07-17T02:10:34Z")
I have an inkling that there may actually be many, many reasons why someone would want to lock you up or even shoot you down. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1533 "2011-07-17T02:23:20Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > dismantle the whole political structure and start afresh . all decisions to have the mandate of the people But, no one could **make** them. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1534 "2011-07-17T02:32:09Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > no iam not into governments they are all just illusions , created by the elites to control the people . > this is what i have been trying to tell you . once they are in power , there is no recognition of the masses , the masses can rant all they like > > democracy is not about voting in people into office > > democracy is about the people having a voice over the issues in their lives . issues that effect the whole society . a government for the masses , not just the rich > > this will not happen until the people create their own government , take it off these imposters .a government to serve the masses , can not be created and run by rich men > > close down the white house , the government has nothing for the people , except bullets Except fat and generous welfare subsidies, free education, health care, roads, security, Social Security… > [@](#): > > dismantle the whole political structure and start afresh . all decisions to have the mandate of the people The current system has the mandate of the people (if not the current government). > [@](#): > > get rid of lawyers , and accountnats > > there would be less laws created , there will be real laws that a five year old can understand Because we need thorough and detailed laws to make sure criminals don’t escape by a loophole. > [@](#): > > no accountants — they make 1$ look like a million > > then put a limit on the the power and money that any citizen can acqire . Isn’t that massively increasing government power? :dubious: > [@](#): > > one simple political house , to dicuss , not to pass laws , but to inform the people of what is going on for them to make informed decisions So how are any laws going to be enacted? Not everybody is smart or moral enough to make informed decisions. Many people will use it as an excuse to riot, rob, and rape. > [@](#): > > where people do not have to rant > > a government , where the people are actually part of it . > > not a government , i see as an enemy , that will not hesistate to lock me up or even shoot me down because i wanted to rant ,for not listening to me in the first place. There is something called the First Amendment. Considering you’re around and not in Gitmo, I highly doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1535 "2011-07-17T02:32:20Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > get rid of lawyers , and accountnats CADE Be brave, then; for your captain is brave, and vows reformation. There shall be in England seven halfpenny loaves sold for a penny: the three-hooped pot; shall have ten hoops and I will make it felony to drink small beer: all the realm shall be in common; and in Cheapside shall my palfrey go to grass: and when I am king, as king I will be,– ALL God save your majesty! CADE I thank you, good people: there shall be no money; all shall eat and drink on my score; and I will apparel them all in one livery, that they may agree like brothers and worship me their lord. DICK The first thing we do, let’s kill all the lawyers. CADE Nay, that I mean to do. Is not this a lamentable thing, that of the skin of an innocent lamb should be made parchment? that parchment, being scribbled o’er, should undo a man? Some say the bee stings: but I say, 'tis the bee’s wax; for I did but seal once to a thing, and I was never mine own man since. How now! who’s there? _Enter some, bringing forward the Clerk of Chatham_ SMITH The clerk of Chatham: he can write and read and cast accompt. CADE O monstrous! SMITH We took him setting of boys’ copies. CADE Here’s a villain! SMITH Has a book in his pocket with red letters in’t. CADE Nay, then, he is a conjurer. DICK Nay, he can make obligations, and write court-hand. CADE I am sorry for’t: the man is a proper man, of mine honour; unless I find him guilty, he shall not die. Come hither, sirrah, I must examine thee: what is thy name? CLERK Emmanuel. DICK They use to write it on the top of letters: 'twill go hard with you. CADE Let me alone. Dost thou use to write thy name? or hast thou a mark to thyself, like an honest plain-dealing man? CLERK Sir, I thank God, I have been so well brought up that I can write my name. ALL He hath confessed: away with him! he’s a villain and a traitor. CADE Away with him, I say! hang him with his pen and ink-horn about his neck. – _Henry VI, Part 2,_ Act 4, Scene 2 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1536 "2011-07-17T02:38:31Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > there would be less laws created , there will be real laws that a five year old can understand Ah, so the jewel in your hand will change color when you’re six? ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1537 "2011-07-17T02:58:24Z")
my goverment would be peoplecracy office of the american people , the peoples house , there is no need for a president , people do not need a head of state to live their lifes . nor the senate , the people need to govern themselves , rule for themselves ,they do not have to beg and pray for mercy from any government . they do not have to vote in an elite to be their president the people do not have to be wrapped up in regulations the media , i raise my hands , it will never be free of influence . humans are not selfish , we are not loners , we are social animals , we share , we live in communities . that is how we have survived . it is the role of monetary wealth that overshadows everything else that makes it appear that humans are selfish . it is the type of modern environment , people are brought up to . the values have changed from community success to individual success if you look back in history , peoples lives were far much different , that is the key . the survival of the people depended on the success of the comunity if people are not working for a common goal , a community/ what is there to share . you therefore focus your energies on yourself . learning to be come selfish in the process . simple lack of community spirit , ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1538 "2011-07-17T03:11:45Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > if you look back in history , peoples lives were far much different , that is the key . Yeah, they were nasty, brutish and short. ---
**Author:** ![mastermoves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@mastermoves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mastermoves)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1539 "2011-07-17T03:35:26Z")
mr q s h , the fat generous checks you dole out to the people is nothing compared to the trillions you dole out to your mates in office . all those missiles , war planes .air craft carriers the rules and laws , created is to protect the trillions being stolen by these lawyers and accountants , that is what iam worried about and i can see how happy the people recieving these benefits are ? ``` i can see some people love this type of government to last forever ``` , i have clarity of thought , it has nothing to do with intelligence ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1540 "2011-07-17T03:40:28Z")
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