# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 78
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1541 "2011-07-17T04:21:12Z")
> [@mastermoves](#): > > i have clarity of thought , it has nothing to do with intelligence You fail clarity of expression. That is always a sign either of a language barrier, or of a serious **lack** of clarity of thought. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1542 "2011-07-18T01:46:09Z")
[The . . . Third? Fourth? Battle of Brega opens in earnest:](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/18/us-libya-idUSTRE76H06X20110718) > [@](#): > > (Reuters) - Libyan rebel forces on Sunday entered the oil town of Brega and fought street battles there with forces loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, a rebel spokesman said, in the biggest offensive in eastern Libya in weeks. > > “The news coming from there is there is a street war going on between Gaddafi troops and the rebels, and 127 are wounded from our side,” Abdulrahman Busm, an official in the rebel National Transitional Council, said by telephone. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1543 "2011-07-18T08:52:44Z")
Dear **mastermoves** , please refrain from derailing the current thread, which is about Libya and not your own personal political theories. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1544 "2011-07-18T10:02:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Yeah, they were nasty, brutish and short. The lives AND the people. I was wondering about this, from the above article: > [@Gaddafi](#): > > “They said Gaddafi will go to Honolulu,” he said in a televised speech. “This is funny: To leave the graves of my forefathers and my people? Are you serious?” Did someone actually say he was going to Hawaii, or is this more of his zany hijinks? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 10:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1545 "2011-07-18T10:06:19Z")
Word is that A: the Qforces are lighting trenches in Brega full of oil on fire to screw with line of sight, and B: they’re running out of trained officers. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1546 "2011-07-18T13:21:45Z")
[Brega falls!](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-18/libya-rebels-claim-brega-victory/2799624) (Now if only they can **keep** it this time!) > [@](#): > > Rebel forces have routed most of Moamar Gaddafi’s troops in the Libyan oil town of Brega in the biggest boost for the insurgents’ military campaign in eastern Libya in weeks, a rebel spokesman said. > > The rebel fighters have encircled Brega, an oil export terminal with a refinery and chemical plant, which for months marked the eastern limit of Gaddafi’s control, rebel spokesman Shamsiddin Abdulmolah said. > > But its streets are littered with landmines, making it hard to secure full control of the area. > > “The main body [of Gaddafi’s forces] retreated to Ras Lanuf [to the west],” Mr Abdulmolah said by telephone. > > “I am told they have some four-wheel drive trucks with machineguns spread out between Ras Lanuf and Bishr.” From the same story: > [@](#): > > While rebel fighters have been making gains in eastern and western Libya in recent days, Russia criticised the United States and other countries for recognising the rebel leadership as the legitimate government of Libya, saying they were taking sides in the insurgents’ five-month-old war to oust Gaddafi. > > “Those who declare recognition stand fully on the side of one political force in a civil war,” Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said. > > US secretary of state Hillary Clinton announced US recognition of the rebels on Friday, while in Turkey for a meeting of an international contact group on Libya - a major diplomatic step that could unblock billions of dollars in frozen Libyan funds. > > Russia and China have taken a softer line towards Gaddafi, and neither attended the contact group meeting. Well, good! That means the Russians keep their credibility as neutral mediators here, if any are needed. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1547 "2011-07-18T17:38:11Z")
[Aljazeera confirms:](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/2011718131010939797.html) > [@](#): > > Libyan rebels have claimed victory against troops loyal to Muammar Gaddafi, the country’s leader, inside the eastern port town of Brega. > > The rebels said Gaddafi’s troops were retreating west towards the town of Ras Lanuf. > > Brega, which is 750km east of Tripoli, the capital, has changed hands several times since the uprising against Gaddafi began in February. > > Shamsiddin Abdulmolah, a rebel spokesman, told the AFP news agency that the fighters had circled the town, a key oil export terminal with a refinery and chemical plant, which for months marked the eastern limit of Gaddafi’s control. > > He said the streets of Brega have “an extraordinary number of anti-personnel mines”, making it hard to secure the area. > > “The remaining number of Gaddafi’s troops in Brega, which is estimated to be between 150 to 200 have been pushed into an industrial area with dwindling supplies,” said Abdulmolah. > > “Their food and water supplies are cut and they now will not be able to sleep. It is a matter of time before they come to their senses, we hope to prevent some bloodshed.” > > Omar El-Hariri, the designated Minister of Military Affairs for the National Transitional Council (NTC) of Libya, told Al Jazeera that the “landmines [are] a new tactic by Gaddafi, because he is desperate.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1548 "2011-07-19T04:09:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > CADE > Away with him, I say! hang him with his pen and ink-horn about his neck. > > – _Henry VI, Part 2,_ Act 4, Scene 2 FTR, Shakespeare (or Holinshed) was no more fair to [Jack Cade](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Cade) than he was to Richard III. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1549 "2011-07-19T17:03:30Z")
[U.S. tells Gaddafi, “time to go.”](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/2011718233615749270.html) > [@](#): > > US officials have met with representatives of Muammar Gaddafi to deliver a message that the embattled Libyan leader must go, a state department spokesperson said. > > The rare meeting between US diplomats and Gaddafi envoys on Saturday was held “to deliver a clear and firm message that the only way to move forward is for Gaddafi to step down,” the official said on Tuesday. > “This was not a negotiation. It was the delivery of a message,” the official said in a statement issued in New Delhi, where Hillary Clinton, the US secretary of state, is on an official visit. > > The meeting involved assistant secretary of state Jeff Feltman and two other American officials, said a senior US official, who declined to say who represented the Gaddafi government or where the meeting occurred, although he said it was not in Libya. > > A State Department official told CNN that the meeting had taken place in Tunis, the Tunisian capital, and had lasted three hours. > > The official said the meeting had been initiated by the US following contact by senior Libyan officials which had indicated Tripoli believed Washington’s commitment to Gaddafi’s departure from power was less firm than its international allies. > > **“Senior officials in the Gaddafi regime had over a period of weeks made repeated calls to senior officials in the U.S. and in those conversations they evinced an incorrect sense that somehow the United States was in a different place from other members of the international community and that the U.S. could see a future for Gaddafi in Libya,”** said the official. Wonder what gave them **that** idea? Oh, I know . . . ---
**Author:** ![straight\_man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/straight_man/32/3027_2.png) [@straight\_man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/straight_man)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1550 "2011-07-19T17:21:00Z")
The US wants Qaddafi gone? I am shocked, shocked! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1551 "2011-07-19T17:30:51Z")
I think we have turned the corner on this operation, and that Kadhafi is in his last throws. Then next 6 months will be crucial. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1552 "2011-07-19T18:28:10Z")
> [@straight\_man](#): > > The US wants Qaddafi gone? I am shocked, shocked! :eek: And so is he, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1553 "2011-07-20T00:35:11Z")
> **[A Libya busman’s holiday - peacefare.net](https://www.peacefare.net/2011/07/14/a-libya-busmans-holiday/)** > > I've got a paper coming out on Libya over at the Council on Foreign Relations in the next couple of days, but I mosied over to the Carnegie Endowment this afternoon for a discussion on Libya's post-Gaddafi transition featuring Esam Omiesh of the... This is an analysis of the Libyan shadow government being formed. > [@](#): > > Fadel, noting that Libya under Gaddafi was a stateless state, or worse a stateless autocracy, surveyed the key players. The TNC, he said, is accepted as legitimate everywhere, as is its chair Judge Abdul Jalil. There is controversy about some of its other members, and it does not always make good decisions, but it has served well so far. > > Local councils have grown up in liberated areas as well as in Gaddafi-held territory, including Tripoli (where there are thought to be four). They are the ones governing at the local level. The February 17 coalition of lawyers and judges is influential. A relatively moderate Muslim brotherhood seems to dominate the Islamists part of the political spectrum, at least for the moment. Technocrats from the Gaddafi regime, military officers, militia leaders, “syndicates” (regime-sponsored guilds of lawyers, doctors, etc.), secular democrats will all have roles to play. So, pretty good there. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1554 "2011-07-20T00:52:22Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > [A Libya busman’s holiday - peacefare.net](http://www.peacefare.net/?p=3912) > > This is an analysis of the Libyan shadow government being formed. > So, pretty good there. Government by unelected volunteers nobody found too objectionable. Not a foundation for a stable system, but it’s a good **start!** 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2011, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1555 "2011-07-20T04:59:23Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Brega falls!](http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-07-18/libya-rebels-claim-brega-victory/2799624) [Or maybe not . . .](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/07/201171922526752203.html) > [@](#): > > **Libyan government forces in trucks disguised with rebel flags** have shelled opposition positions near the strategic eastern oil town of Brega, killing 13 rebel fighters and wounding dozens more, officials said. > > Rebel forces have been pushing to seize the frontline town, which is home to an oil refinery and terminal, for nearly a week, but they say minefields planted by Gaddafi’s forces have slowed the advance. > > They took positions 10km east of the oil port, working to clear the mines so they can move forward. > > “Maybe within three or four days we will solve this problem of mines and we will be in Brega,” said rebel spokesman Ahmed Bani. > > Al Jazeera’s Anita McNaught reporting from the area says rebels thought their position was betrayed by “spies and traitors” within their camp but they were certain those disloyal to the cause would be rooted out. > > The rebels are fighting in a residential area on the town’s eastern side and control about one-third of the town, another rebel spokesman said. Is it against the laws of war to fly the enemy’s colors for purposes of deception? Does that make you a spy liable to shooting? Serious question, I dunno. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1556 "2011-07-21T05:59:04Z")
[Interesting analysis on HuffPo:](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chris-weigant/libya-rebels-brega_b_905215.html) > [@](#): > > The Libyan war has been called a “stalemate” so often by the media that they’ve now stopped paying attention, for the most part. But this facile label isn’t entirely true. The rebels have been quietly building up and training their forces, and have had both major and minor victories in the meantime. Holding the western city of Misrata has been the most spectacular of these to date, but in recent weeks the rebels have opened up a corridor in the mountains southwest of Tripoli, and have been advancing towards the capital in fits and starts. These pockets of resistance in the western part of Libya may eventually be the most important militarily (if they manage to advance all the way to Tripoli’s outskirts), but the eastern half of the country may prove to be more important to the rebels’ overall chances of success, in strategic terms. Because whoever controls Brega will control the oil the town can ship out. Which would be a huge source of income for the rebels. And this war may wind up being one of attrition, in the end. > > Reports from the battlefield are sketchy, at best. Wild claims by both sides are made and then quickly refuted. The rebels claimed they held Brega after the first day of fighting, and that they had routed the loyalists who were in retreat towards the next coastal town to the west, Ras Lanuf. The Libyan government claimed it had killed over 500 rebels, without any sort of proof. After the dust settled on the battling propaganda, it seems that the town is now still held by government troops, but they are currently under siege by rebel troops which have surrounded the town. The government forces have pulled off at least one successful ambush of the rebels, by either (reports are sketchy) dressing as rebels in a vehicle with rebel markings to get close enough to attack the rebel forces, or by spies infiltrated into the rebel ranks who broadcast their location via satellite phone to the government troops. The rebels have also run into minefields laid down by the loyalists, which have been brutally effective. > > The initial attack by the rebels was reportedly made by both sea and land (and, one assumes, N.A.T.O. air cover as well). If true, this is a more complex and coordinated military operation than the rebels have so far shown the ability to carry out. Which shows the improvement in the rebel forces, and the effect of training. It also shows that the rebels now have access to a military supply chain which did not exist in the heady first weeks of the war. Pictures of the advance on Brega show heavy artillery and other modern weapons, instead of ancient rocket launchers hastily attached to pickup trucks with what seemed to be nothing more than bailing wire. The unspoken assumption is that the rebels’ friends in the rest of the world have found a way to get such equipment to the battlefront. Which, again, could be key in the longer war. > > \ > > The other logistical problem Gaddafi may be facing is a shortage of military supplies. He is cut off from the world by land and sea, but may still be bringing in supplies overland from the south, from other African countries. He may also be bringing in mercenary fighters via the same route. This is mostly speculation, as (once again) facts are hard to come by in the midst of a war, it should be admitted. But even if Gaddafi does have this conduit open to him, it depends on a dangerous (for him) equation. Because in order to receive shipments of ammunition (or of foreign fighters), Gaddafi’s got to ship out an equal amount of money. Since his money’s not going to last forever, this will not continue indefinitely. > > Taking the long view strategically, the rebels seem to be in much better shape than Gaddafi. The rebels are being resupplied with ammunition and equipment, they just got diplomatic recognition from the United States, and they may soon be able to tap into the tens of billions of Libyan dollars frozen in Western banks since the war started. The rebel troops seem to be better trained and more serious these days than the “ragtag band” which raced across the desert to the west (and just as quickly retreated east) in the opening days of the war. Plus, they seem to now have the momentum militarily, even if it is a slow momentum to watch unfold. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1557 "2011-07-21T08:38:26Z")
Huzzah! ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1558 "2011-07-21T11:29:10Z")
There’s been some major advances in the south, recently. [![](https://i.imgur.com/RyQaT.jpg) ](https://i.imgur.com/RyQaT.jpg) Q’s cut off in all directions, looks like. My reports on Brega is that the rebels have essentially got it, the remaining Q troops are cut off. The major issue is the minefield all over the place. Some rebels are heading for Ras Lanuf. Scouting for mines, presumably. ---
**Author:** ![Bibliovore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Bibliovore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bibliovore)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1559 "2011-07-21T11:38:00Z")
Double-huzzah! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1560 "2011-07-21T14:05:48Z")
> [@Bibliovore](#): > > Double-huzzah! Don’t count your zahs before they’re huzzed, the rebels apparently don’t even have a firm hold on **Brega** just yet. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=77) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=79)