# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 87
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1721 "2011-08-16T14:07:29Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > And now Gadaffi’s just firing off SCUD missiles in the general direction of rebel cities. This can’t end well. SCUD missiles?! Have those ever been any use to anybody?! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1722 "2011-08-16T14:08:38Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > BBC is reporting the Dutch government will take all of the Libyan assets it’s seized, something like $140 million, and hand the money over to the World Health Organization to buy medicines for the rebels and civilians. At the moment, I think they’d rather have ammo. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2011, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1723 "2011-08-16T21:42:18Z")
[Hot battle in Zawiyah.](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8705359/Libya-rooftop-sniper-takes-a-heavy-toll-in-Zawiyah-a-city-waiting-to-fall.html) Sniper fire, artillery and rocket barrages. > [@](#): > > From the rooftops around the city’s Martyr’s Square, a single sniper has brought one wave of the assault along Libya’s western coast to something of a standstill. > > “This sniper is really tormenting us,” says Hareth al-Fasi, a 24-year-old surgeon’s son and student from Sutton Coldfield, who has joined the opposition. > > “The freedom fighters have tried everything to hit him but have seen nothing more than a rifle muzzle.” > > The death of a woman shot in her front room has only added to the singular mystique of a killer ensconced in high buildings and who is said to have accounted for six of the 12 opposition fighters killed on Monday. > > In truth, though, it is not just one man who stands in the way of victory. Zawiyah is a city ready to fall and it appears that Gaddafi forces know their fate and have hit back at the advance with ever more reckless abandon. Grad missiles have rained down on districts seized by rebel troops. Rockets and mortars have stopped ground advances in other disputed territories. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2011, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1724 "2011-08-17T03:36:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > At the moment, I think they’d rather have ammo. I don’t think the WHO is going to do that. 😉 The reports I heard said the money is being handed over in response to a WHO request. Seems there is some need for medical care. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1725 "2011-08-18T14:28:51Z")
Zawiya Oil Refinery taken. Rebels have Gayran, 80km south of Tripoli. Fighting continues in Badr, friendly fire from NATO kills several. Misrata rebels have reached the main road to Sirte… there’s nothing to stop them between where they are and Sirte proper. Snipers continue to harass in Zawiya. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1726 "2011-08-18T16:01:43Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Zawiya Oil Refinery taken. Rebels have Gayran, 80km south of Tripoli. Fighting continues in Badr, friendly fire from NATO kills several. Misrata rebels have reached the main road to Sirte… there’s nothing to stop them between where they are and Sirte proper. > > Snipers continue to harass in Zawiya. Then it’s over – that is, unless Gaddafi can re-take Tripoli’s supply routes, there’s no way he can turn this around before the fat lady sings. The rebels can just wait for Tripoli to get hungry. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1727 "2011-08-18T16:17:36Z")
I think the West has handled this the right way. One brigade of U.S. Marines could have ended this war at any time in the past six months, but the rebels just wanted air support and to do all the ground-fighting themselves. Which means the Libya that results from this will not be like Iraq, where almost everyone across the spectrum has a seething resentment against the foreign invaders. Instead, it will feel indebted to the West for its freedom. (Sure, anyone who lost a loved one to a NATO bomb might feel differently, but they’ll be a small minority, and all other war-damage will be blamed only on Libyans.) That gives us a potentially important ally in the MENA. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1728 "2011-08-18T19:12:44Z")
Gaddafi forces have retreated from Gharyan but they are not far away Few kilometers to the south / southeast. Sahban Military Base in hands of rebels. Rebels from Misrata have captured the town of Al Hishah, 100km south of the city, on the road to Sirte. Gharyan is a strategic city, it is on the main road from the south to Tripoli. Do not worry! This is not real. It is only NATO photoshopping. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/0LtLoros6Uk/hqdefault.jpg "The Use of Photoshopped Material to Fool the People in Tripoli? (August 17, 2011)") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LtLoros6Uk) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2011, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1729 "2011-08-18T21:19:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Sahban Military Base in hands of rebels. Cite?! That would be big! That’s Gaddafi’s main center of power in the southern Fezzan region! At this rate, and if Sirte falls, he’ll be down to just Tripoli by the end of the week. And then it gets really nasty, I fear. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1730 "2011-08-19T02:43:03Z")
No cite, sadly. Just chatter. May or may not be true. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1731 "2011-08-19T21:45:45Z")
[The rebels have taken both Zawiyah and Zlitan.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011819145519307139.html) ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1732 "2011-08-19T22:35:20Z")
One man’s opinion: [**Libya and the end of Western illusions**](http://www.voltairenet.org/Libya-and-the-end-of-Western) > [@](#): > > …Just under half of Europeans still support the war against Libya. Their position is based on erroneous information. They still believe, in fact, that in February the “Gaddafi regime” crushed the protests in Benghazi with brutal force and bombed civilian districts in Tripoli, while the Colonel himself was warning of “rivers of blood” if his compatriots continued to challenge his authority. > > During my two months’ investigation on the ground, I was able to verify that these accusations were pure propaganda intoxication, designed by the NATO powers to create the conditions for war, and relayed around the world by their television media, in particular Al-Jazeera, CNN, BBC and France24. > > However, the reader who doesn’t know where he stands on this issue and who - despite the brainwashing of September 11 and Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction - is reluctant to accept that the United States, France, the UK and Qatar were actually capable of fabricating such lies, will be able to forge an opinion over time. NATO, the largest military coalition in history, has failed after five months of bombardments to overthrow the one it designated as a “tyrant.” Every Friday, a large demonstration in support of the regime is organized in a different city and all experts are unanimous in considering that Colonel Gaddafi enjoys at least 90% of popular support in Tripolitania and 70% across the entire country, including the “rebel” areas. These are people who every single day put up with the blockade, aerial bombardments and ground fighting. Never would they be defending with their flesh and blood someone who committed against them the crimes of which he has been accused by the “international community.” The difference between those in the West who believe that Gaddafi is a tyrant who fired on his own people, and those in Libya who believe that he is a hero of the anti-imperialist struggle, is that the former live in an illusion created by TV propaganda, whereas the others are exposed to the concrete reality on the ground… > > \ > > These gentlemen from NATO, who hoped to escape international justice by crushing their victim, Libya, in a few short days so that it would not survive to pursue them, will be disenchanted. Libya is still there. She is filing complaints with the International Criminal Court, the Belgian courts (whose jurisdiction NATO falls under), the European Court of Justice, and the national courts of aggressor states. She is undertaking steps before the Council of Human Rights in Geneva, the Security Council and General Assembly of the United Nations. It will be not be possible for the big powers to extinguish these fires all at once. Worse, the arguments they will use to evade a court will ricochet against them in another court. In a few weeks or months, if they have not succeeded in destroying Tripoli, they will have no other way out to avoid humiliating convictions than to negotiate the withdrawal of the complaints at a very high price. More for **BG** to digest: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I think the West has handled this the right way. One brigade of U.S. Marines could have ended this war at any time in the past six months, but the rebels just wanted air support and to do all the ground-fighting themselves. Which means the Libya that results from this will not be like Iraq, where almost everyone across the spectrum has a seething resentment against the foreign invaders. Instead, it will feel indebted to the West for its freedom. (Sure, anyone who lost a loved one to a NATO bomb might feel differently, but they’ll be a small minority, and all other war-damage will be blamed only on Libyans.) That gives us a potentially important ally in the MENA. Warning. Crude scenes of war: [**NATO war crimes in Zliten**](http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=vtS2qJeeXUA) ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1733 "2011-08-19T23:17:20Z")
You’re sure that’s not a Grad impact, Red? Kind of looks like one to me. I mean, I’ve been watching. A lot closer than some people. And Gadaffi’s people have claimed NATO atrocities repeatedly. And every time, it’s been shown to be faked. Now, either every single english language reporter in Libya is in on it, or there really isn’t anything there. And do you really think that no reporter would fail to report red meat like this? I hate to disagree, but I know people in Libya. And they were present for the beginning, for the ZSU anti-aircraft weapons firing on unarmed people. I’ve known them for a while. Now, you cite someone who wants to be believed. Okay. Let’s look at his work. > [@](#): > > Thierry Meyssan French intellectual, founder and chairman of Voltaire Network and the Axis for Peace Conference. His columns specializing in international relations feature in daily newspapers and weekly magazines in Arabic, Spanish and Russian. His last two books published in English : 9/11 the Big Lie and Pentagate. 9/11 the Big Lie. Pentagate. This is THAT guy. The French truther. Okay, seriously. You expect us to believe a word that guy posts? Why? Are you a truther too? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2011, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1734 "2011-08-19T23:45:49Z")
**E-Sabbath** , to be honest I often wonder around the 'net’s alternative newsites simply because after Afghanistan – not Iraq mind you, I was able to see through that one – I felt more than a bit deceived by what I’d “learned” though the MSM. Now, on this whole Libya issue, I defer to you – who’s obviously more aware/in touch with what is happening on the ground – and many other posters here. Having said that, I had no idea who Thierry Meyssan was/is – and no, I am certainly not a truther vis-a-vis 9/11. Problem is _I am_ extremely skeptical of MSN. So again (and I realize there are a lot of independent quacks out there) I do my best to at least try to hear that other side of the story. And this dude has boots on the ground…unpopular as his take might be. TBH, I don’t even know that I’ve taken sides in the Libyan Revolution – I simply don’t see it yet in white and black shades as many of you appear to. For the time being I look at the whole thing as continued-ed. And have no illusions of a happy ending. As I wrote in many an Iraq thread, here’s hoping I am proven wrong. Be well. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1735 "2011-08-20T00:15:51Z")
Hey, it was right on the page you linked to. The biography. I’d be suspicious too, frankly. This has been almost too perfect. But, time and again, Gadaffi has claimed a bomb missed and killed (eight people) (a little girl) (a holy man) and time and again (actually they were dead for weeks) (she’s alive) (the things they claim are fragments have soviet markings) (why would a schoolhouse have graffiti on the walls claiming to be from a military unit boasting about how it killed people in Misrata?) they’ve been shown to be not only propaganda but _bad_ propaganda. It seems the propaganda arm of the Libyan government has gotten so used to being the only source of information that they can’t even do good coverups anymore. I don’t think anyone would be surprised if NATO bombs missed. But… largely, they havn’t. They have killed rebels. Happened just yesterday. But that was because they were inside what NATO calls a Red Zone (don’t go there, we’re bombing shit) and I think the vehicles weren’t painted right. But there’s been a really minimal amount of civilian casualties. Well. From NATO bombing. Actually, there’s been a negative amount of casualties. > **[Col Muammar Gaddafi's daughter Hana 'still alive'](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8693628/Col-Muammar-Gaddafis-daughter-Hana-still-alive.html)** > > Col Muammar Gaddafi's daughter Hana, who was said to have been killed by a 1986 US air raid on Tripoli is still alive, according to reports. One old casualty seems to have come back to life. Be skeptical of the MSM. They rarely report anything accurately. But their fail in this was a few months back when they were broadcasting about stalemate. I don’t get my info from the MSM. I get it from the ground. I’m surprisingly good at that. I’ve been on the internet a long time, and I have connections everywhere from Libya to Bioware Studios Austin to Prague to New Zealand. They may be wrong, but they’re generally reporting correctly. If you dig the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1736 "2011-08-20T00:21:36Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Actually, there’s been a negative amount of casualties. > [http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8693628/Col-Muammar-Gaddafis-daughter-Hana-still-alive.html](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8693628/Col-Muammar-Gaddafis-daughter-Hana-still-alive.html) > > One old casualty seems to have come back to life. :eek: NATO has the Genesis Device!! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1737 "2011-08-20T01:14:14Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Having said that, I had no idea who Thierry Meyssan was/is – and no, I am certainly not a truther vis-a-vis 9/11. Problem is _I am_ extremely skeptical of MSN. So again (and I realize there are a lot of independent quacks out there) I do my best to at least try to hear that other side of the story. And this dude has boots on the ground…unpopular as his take might be. Try [Aljazeera English.](http://english.aljazeera.net/) It’s pretty fair and balanced all things considered. You can be sure they’ll take the Arab side of anything when it comes to Arabs v. the West or Arabs vs. Israel. But their Libyan coverage has been generally pro-rebels. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1738 "2011-08-20T14:33:00Z")
The problem is that Thierry Meyssan says, > [@](#): > > During my two months’ investigation on the ground, I was able to verify that these accusations were pure propaganda intoxication, designed by the NATO powers to create the conditions for war, and relayed around the world by their television media, in particular Al-Jazeera, CNN, BBC and France24. Al-Jazeera is part of the NATO conspiracy. So you can’t trust them either. In other news: > **[Libyan rebels capture oil hub Brega](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/libyan-rebels-capture-oil-hub-brega-2341009.html)** > > Libyan rebels battling Muammar Gaddafi's troops along the country's Mediterranean coast said they have captured all of the strategic eastern port city of Brega. Brega is certainly under control. FINALLY. Abu Salim prison has been bombed, breaking down some of the walls. Mass prisoner escapes. Most prisoners were political. > **[Abdullah Senussi](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_Senussi)** > > Chadian–Libyan War (1978–1987) > Abdullah Senussi (/əbˈdʌlə ɑːl səˈnuːsi/ ⓘ əb-DUL-ə ahl sə-NOO-see) is a Libyan national who was the intelligence chief and brother-in-law of former Libyan leader Colonel Muammar Gaddafi. He was married to Gaddafi's sister-in-law. > In 2011, Scottish police officers planned to interview him in connection with the Lockerbie bombing. Abdullah Senussi has probably been wounded in a bombing. [http://www.timesofoman.com/innercat.asp?detail=48965&rand=](http://www.timesofoman.com/innercat.asp?detail=48965&rand=) Want to get rid of snipers? This is how one Irish-Libyan kid does it. Zlitan is not completely fallen, there’s some holdouts. (no cite) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/NlPbF1YMNVs/hqdefault.jpg "جولة في زليتن بعد تحريرها") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlPbF1YMNVs) But have a video of some guys driving around in there, anyhow. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/libyan-refugees-say-tripoli-will-fall-soon/2011/08/19/gIQAS5w5QJ\_story.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/libyan-refugees-say-tripoli-will-fall-soon/2011/08/19/gIQAS5w5QJ_story.html) Refugees from Tripoli don’t think there’s much chance it’ll hold out for long. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1739 "2011-08-20T20:23:04Z")
There is now uprising in Tripoli against Kadafi. The al Jazeera is broadcasting live reporting. Souk Jumaa, Fashaoum, etc are rising against. they call it the liberation of Tripoli. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2011, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1740 "2011-08-20T20:30:00Z")
There is reporting that Kadafi has left, as the uprising in Tripoli is expanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=86) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=88)