# Libya too?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 16, 2011, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595 "2011-02-16T16:37:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 93
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1841 "2011-08-29T21:22:26Z")
[Gaddafi’s wife, daughter and two sons flee to Algeria.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011829171617807937.html) Still no sign of Himself. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2011, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1842 "2011-08-29T21:27:10Z")
[Khamis Gaddafi confirmed dead,](http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/rebels-confirm-gaddafi-son-khamis-is-dead-20110830-1jiwn.html) yet again, but apparently for real this time. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1843 "2011-08-30T03:35:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Khamis Gaddafi confirmed dead,](http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/rebels-confirm-gaddafi-son-khamis-is-dead-20110830-1jiwn.html) yet again, but apparently for real this time. BBC’s not reporting this at all. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1844 "2011-08-30T16:12:37Z")
[Rebels give holdouts in Sirte until Saturday to surrender.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011830133244699250.html) Why **are** they holding out anyway?! What’s the point?! They must know things can’t be put back to where they were seven months ago. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2011, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1845 "2011-08-30T23:56:41Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Why **are** they holding out anyway?! What’s the point?! They must know things can’t be put back to where they were seven months ago. I believe many of them are holding out hoping to get guarantees that they will not suffer vigilante justice for their activities supporting the regime. If they were police who arrested dissidents, or soldiers who were order to fight the rebels, they are worried about being punished for that. This has already happened to one of the highest generals of Gadaffi, after hedefected and was in charge of part of the rebel army – he was assassinated/executed by relatives of people who had been killed by government forces back when he was commanding them. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1846 "2011-08-31T00:45:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Khamis Gaddafi confirmed dead,](http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-world/rebels-confirm-gaddafi-son-khamis-is-dead-20110830-1jiwn.html) yet again, but apparently for real this time. > [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > BBC’s not reporting this at all. And of course BBC reported it shortly after I posted the above. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Rebels give holdouts in Sirte until Saturday to surrender.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011830133244699250.html) > > Why **are** they holding out anyway?! What’s the point?! They must know things can’t be put back to where they were seven months ago. The journalists who were finally released from that hotel in Tripoli after persuading their guards to lay down their weapons reported some of them (the guards) were despondent and weeping. There are some pretty high feelings, and in this case it really didn’t seem to be merely fear for their safety. They’ve been riding that gravy train for 42 years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1847 "2011-08-31T00:48:18Z")
> [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > I believe many of them are holding out hoping to get guarantees that they will not suffer vigilante justice for their activities supporting the regime. If they were police who arrested dissidents, or soldiers who were order to fight the rebels, they are worried about being punished for that. Shouldn’t be a sticking-point. So far the NTC has been very much against any kind of revenge violence. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1848 "2011-08-31T03:24:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Shouldn’t be a sticking-point. So far the NTC has been very much against any kind of revenge violence. That didn’t help General Abdel Fattah Younes much – he was part of the NTC, and he’s still dead. I don’t think these people are worried about the NTC as much as local people taking vengeance. Holding out for a while may be a smart tactic. Wait until the NTC is firmly in power, and has effective control of government, down to the local level – that may make it a much safer time to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1849 "2011-08-31T15:55:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Shouldn’t be a sticking-point. So far the NTC has been very much against any kind of revenge violence. > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [Rebels give holdouts in Sirte until Saturday to surrender.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/2011830133244699250.html) > > Why **are** they holding out anyway?! What’s the point?! They must know things can’t be put back to where they were seven months ago. this is very innocent. You put too much faith in words and idealistic declarations. the reality of the war like this is that the individual bands have loyalty to their captains, the seigneurs de guerre, and such people rarely have the idealistic comportement of intelectuals. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1850 "2011-08-31T16:10:38Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > this is very innocent. You put too much faith in words and idealistic declarations. the reality of the war like this is that the individual bands have loyalty to their captains, the seigneurs de guerre, and such people rarely have the idealistic comportement of intelectuals. That’s as may be, but, as I was just hearing on All Things Considered this morning, the NTC is very concerned to avoid any Iraq-style post-war chaos. So they’re keeping the Gaddafi-era administrations and police and civil servants in place wherever possible; in Tripoli, traffic cops are already back at work. IOW, this regime has little interest in a thorough de-Gaddafization of the government – no purges may be expected. Little comfort as that may be for those at the top of the old regime. They **will** be arrested if caught alive. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1851 "2011-08-31T16:26:58Z")
[Moammar’s third son Saadi Gaddafi is ready to turn himself in.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/201183113850542486.html) (Bottom of page.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1852 "2011-08-31T16:35:18Z")
I read somewhere recently that today’s Arab revolutionaries use Iraq as a reference-point for things to be avoided, as in, “We want to take Tripoli without Baghdadizing it,” i.e., without chaos and looting. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1853 "2011-08-31T16:45:53Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > That’s as may be, but, as I was just hearing on All Things Considered this morning, the NTC is very concerned to avoid any Iraq-style post-war chaos. Alhamoudlillah allah malek alhamid. But NTC is not in control of the warbands. They are being very wise and doing it seems a good job. But that does not make their pretty words effective in front lines. Little comfort as that may be for those at the top of the old regime. They **will** be arrested if caught alive. [/quote] And they may be killed by front line warbands who are less interested in pretty words by intellectuals than in getting revenge for their sufferings. Even in places where there is real command, this is a great danger. In the situation of Lybia, it is not just a stupidity of Qadafi loyalists to fear executions on spot. you have great faith in declarations. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1854 "2011-08-31T16:47:13Z")
But it is very funny that The Guide is now only offering to negotiation a transition govenrment, as if it was like in March… He is funny, the Guide. He should have been a performer on TV. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1855 "2011-08-31T21:33:52Z")
[Now Saif says they’re ready to fight to the death. Saadi still wants to surrender.](http://english.aljazeera.net/news/africa/2011/08/201183113850542486.html) > [@](#): > > “We would like to tell our people that we are well and good. The leader [Muammar Gaddafi] is fine. We have more than 20,000 armed youths and we are ready to fight. I tell our men to strike back against the rats,” Saif is quoted as saying on the pro-Gaddafi al-Rai television station. > > However, Saadi said in a TV interview that he had his father’s authorisation to talk to National Transitional Council (NTC) to stop the bloodshed in Libya. > > “We acknowledge that they [the NTC] represent a legal party, but we are also the government and a legal negotiating party,” he said. > > Mahmoud Shammam, spokesman for the NTC, told Al Jazeera that the two sons have very different requests. “It seems that Saadi is not feeling safe. He is not negotiating on behalf of his father, but negotiating on behalf of his [own] life. We are talking about Saadi who is in a very bad situation.” > > “On the other hand, we have Saif al Islam, and he is trying to raise the morale of the people surrounding him and wants to fight.” Yes, well. What’s Arabic for _Schadenfreude?_😃 ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1856 "2011-08-31T21:52:39Z")
You dont have to answer, **Ramira** , but are you Libyan (thought you were Maghrebi)? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1857 "2011-08-31T22:17:53Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Alhamoudlillah allah malek alhamid What does this mean, please? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2011, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1858 "2011-08-31T22:29:13Z")
> [@](#): > > We have more than 20,000 armed youths and we are ready to fight. I tell our men to strike back against the rats," Saif is quoted as saying on the pro-Gaddafi al-Rai television station. And that doesn’t even count the thousands of hospital patients and nursing home residents ready to take up arms on behalf of the Gaddafi regime. ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1859 "2011-09-01T00:06:09Z")
20,000, huh? They said they had 60,000 for the defense of Tripoli. That’s some nasty casualty levels, that is. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2011, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595/1860 "2011-09-01T12:47:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > What does this mean, please? > > Regards, > Shodan It is not about terrorism. It only is the equivalent of By grace of God. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > You dont have to answer, **Ramira** , but are you Libyan (thought you were Maghrebi)? No I am not Libyan, but I have spent enough time in it and around it to have opinions about Qadafi. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=92) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/libya-too/571595.md?page=94)