How have we burned through our moral and political capital in the Middle East?
Conceivably such a gesture from the Egyptian military as dispatching a couple jets to “protect the Libyan people” could win them both a shot of confidence from Egyptian democracy advocates and a measure of respect across the region as a revived center of independent Arab power.
Presumably Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and any number of other bad things we’ve done in the region. While I think DT is generally over the top, and while I think he’s exaggerating there (another of his traits), I’d say he’s not that far from the truth. We are certainly not very popular in the ME.
-XT
No it doesn’t. But idiots like Glenn Beck latch on to that and then use it a brush to paint all socialists. And we have to waste time wiping that crap off, the same as we have to waste time reminding the Teabaggers they are not they only REAL Americans. Yeah, that’s life, it’s not fair, blah, blah, blah. It would be nice if we didn’t have to deal with it. One tries to ignore the Becks of the world and just get on with the program, but sometimes the din gets distracting. Or annoying. Mostly annoying. Working on that. Need to meditate more.
In regard to Interior Secretary/Gen. Abdul Fatah Younis. YEAH!
And another REAL hero of the revolution stands up. I do hope this ends quickly and does not drag out.
Algeria is saying they are finally lifting their state of emergency put in place after the 1992 elections. Now to see if they actually hold elections. Same with Tunisia.
It still is very early in the process for all these countries, but it still looks hopeful.
[Another factor in the uprisings](Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera /201121321487750509.html)
[QUOTE=spark240]
Conceivably such a gesture from the Egyptian military as dispatching a couple jets to “protect the Libyan people” could win them both a shot of confidence from Egyptian democracy advocates and a measure of respect across the region as a revived center of independent Arab power.
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It would be the military’s decision, not that of the people, so it really wouldn’t help democracy one way or the other. On the other hand, it might bring them enmity from the Libyan’s, especially if Kaddafi pulls it out and somehow survives. Even if he doesn’t, depending on how things play out the Libyan military might have a major role in whatever happens, and they might not be to keen if Egypt blows away some of their fighters who would be acting on the orders of the current leader.
I’d say that the downsides outweigh the potential benefits, and Egypt has a lot of it’s own problems to work out before it goes haring off to fix someone else’s problem. If this is anyone’s business (besides the Libyan’s of course), IMHO, it’s the UN’s. This might not be a pub fight, and they might not be the police, but this is the sort of thing they are supposed to at least nominally deal with. If not, what good are they?
-XT
And when a country in an excited revolutionary state happens to have a strong army, and starts intervening abroad for the sake of “spreading the revolution” . . . well, before long, Napoleon is Emperor. (Remember Napoleon, Egyptians? He paid you a visit once.)
No, it wouldn’t help democracy. But it might help the Egyptian’s military’s public image, with the fiery youth and MB constituencies.
Some Libyan generals (colonels?) have already publicly disavowed the current leader and encouraged Libyan soldiers to help “bring victory” to the people.
A gesture in solidarity with the Libyan rebels could be a brilliant political play by the Egyptian high command. Maybe. Just sayin.
Yeah, but some Libyan military is obviously still holding out or this thing would be over already and Kaddafi would be a bad memory. I think it would be a bad move on Egypt’s part, but it’s really up to them. I would bet money that they won’t do anything though. I’m guessing that no one else is going to do anything substantial either, unless this thing goes on for a while and it get’s ugly enough to spark a large public outcry. I think that the Libyan’s are on their own on this one. And really, sad as the bloodshed is, maybe that’s for the best. It will mean a lot more to them if they rip the power from Kaddafi’s cold, dead hands than if someone hands it to them.
-XT
No, I’m saying that they’d protest themselves. What, you think that only people you like know how to protest? There are hundreds of thousands of settlers with hundreds of thousands of supporters inside the Green Line, and they are capable of disrupting traffic and seizing government buildings just as well as Palestinians could. And because of the guns, the Israeli government would have a much harder time using harsh measures to suppress them.
A protest in favor of something you personally consider reprehensible can be just as effective as a protest in favor of something you find admirable.
No, the IDF probably would mow them down, and justify it by calling them “terrorists”. And America would collectively nod and go along with it. Anything is justifiable to most people if you label your victims “terrorists”.
Younis reportedly kidnapped in Benghazi.
But that’s “reported” by Libyan state media. Who knows? We saw the Egyptian revolution happening live every day, but Libya is not such an open society. After this is over, journalists and historians are going to have a lot of fun piecing together just what happened.
My husband who used to work in Libya, has been in communication with former co workers. They are trapped at the worksite, all the Libyans have fled including the army. They are 600kms fro Tripoli in the desert. These men are Australian, Peruvian, Americans. British, Eygptian and other assorted expats.
Attacking sounds a little strong there, the most I would expect them to do is to enforce a no fly zone for any military aircraft, rather than conduct air strikes on the airfields. On the other hand, it would be the second time that the libyan air force has tangled with Nato fighters in a brawl (THE ITAVIA DC-9 CRASH), if they so chose to do so.
As for the justification, I’d pretty much use the same language as kosovo.
Declan
The Times has today been describing some of the extreme injuries on casualties brought into Benghazi’s hospitals over the past couple of days. Confirmed video footage shows a young man with legs almost completely severed from his torso, and two men whose bodies have been blown away completely from the chest down. The injuries are so extreme that they confirm that the victims were killed by airstrikes, tanks, machine guns or other heavy weapons
Yes, I’ve seen those images on line - the links to them are actually in this thread, on prior pages. I do caution people that those images are extremely graphic and explicit, they pull no punches and Bibliovore’s descriptions are right on the money.
[QUOTE=Declan]
Attacking sounds a little strong there, the most I would expect them to do is to enforce a no fly zone for any military aircraft, rather than conduct air strikes on the airfields. On the other hand, it would be the second time that the libyan air force has tangled with Nato fighters in a brawl (THE ITAVIA DC-9 CRASH), if they so chose to do so.
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If you move into another countries air space and tell them that you are imposing a military no-fly zone, that in and of itself is an attack even if you never fire a shot. It’s basically an act of war.
I agree that NATO nations fighter planes could pretty easily handle the Libyans.
-XT
Minor data point: a Tunisian facebook friend of mine was getting into heated arguments (in French, so I only got the jist) about whether Tunisia would be justified/wise to intervene. A bloody civil war on the border is not a good situation for any country.
I hope they are all safe. At least they are not in the major cities. I have read reports where foreign workers are being attacked because the protesters think they are mercenaries. I think some nasty incidents are going to buried under the rubble when this is all finished, no matter which side prevails.
But.. Didn’t el supremo (got tired of figuring out his name) said that he was in control? Why do this sabotage if he is in control now? [/Sarcasm]