BTW, has Israel taken any position on the Libyan revolution? Gaddafi has always been vociferously anti-Israel; we really don’t know how the rebels feel about it. Other than whether Gaddafi should go, it is almost impossible at this point to know the state of public opinion in Libya on any issue.
Israel has been working hard on its carpet impression. Nothing we say right now would he in any way helpful.
That’s not true. If Israel enthusiastically came out in support for Quadaffi that might just give the rebels the support they need to end him.
Right. Because the only thing that the Libyan rebels need is clearly a pep talk from their mortal enemies. :rolleyes:
Incidentally, how about answering the question? Here it is again in case you missed it the first couple times:
“Because of the situation Libyans find themselves in – limited access to healthcare, high unemployment, a corrupt and repressive regime ruling over them, etc. – do you agree that violence is the only recourse these people have to effect any kind of justice for themselves?”
I think it would behoove you to clarify your position, Finn. Otherwise, some people just might read your contradictory stances as abject hypocrisy…
If we’re going to do something, we need to do it soon. A no-fly zone seems to be the very least we can do. The rebels don’t seem to want other nations to put boots on the ground, but special forces might be able to help form them into a fighting force and we can potentially import weapons. It’s getting to be go time, though. Then again, I still strongly support assassination as the preferred method of dealing with Quadaffi and his inner circle.
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I saw a military expert talk of 350 to 500 targets .if they do a no fly zone. It would require a fleet of jets and bombers that are already being used. The anti aircraft is modern and would be dangerous. Libya also has jets.
Then, what if that is not enough? Do we supply arms and men?
At the risk of…
No. There are free planes among NATO member countries. The US in particular hardly has our stealth air wings tasked to capacity currently.
Yes.
Only if requested.
Rebels retreat from Ras Lanuf. Zawiyah is still a rebel core surrounded by the army.
If only someone had posted something about Ras Lanuf. Perhaps in post 605.
It seems the no-flight zone concept is pretty much out, since China and Russia oppose it (except if Kadhafi was to make something truly awful like using chemical weapons or organizing a large scale massacre).
Even within NATO, it appears to not get much support, due to the extent of the operation, and the assets needed (I read about 600 aircrafts). That would be the reason to propose to just bomb the airfields.
FTR, at the moment, France seems to be envisioning some kind of selective bombing, within the frame of a coalition led by the UK and France and including some Arab countries.
It seems that direct attacks, though much more difficult to defend from a diplomatic point of view, are way easier to implement than a no flight zone.
FTR, I think weapons should been provided (should have been provided like some weeks ago, in fact). I’ve nothing against men, either, but the rebels don’t want them. I’ve read that bombings would require the presence of special forces on the ground, anyway.
I did not move any goalposts and you have refuted nothing. I pointed out a simple and self-evident historical fact. Where is the health care, the economic freedom, the personal liberty of the typical Libyan? Paying foreigners to build a huge pipeline running water to three cities where the majority of the foreign investors in the dictator’s projects live and work and which could have probably gotten water cheaper through desalination from the sea, (while failing to provide any significant agricultural resources), is not doing anything for the people.
Autobahns, trains running on time, bread and circuses, and similar stunts have been the hallmark of despots for ages and a big pipe is no exception.
Well, for someone who pulls Commissar’s stunt like this with language, it very well could be, in his mind, an exception. After all, if one’s going to pretend a sentence clearly does not mean what it clearly does, why would any other fact receive different treatment from that person?
If violence is what it takes for people to free themselves from tyranny then violence is justified.
And I don’t belive 600 aircraft are required. We’re always hearing about how super-awesome carrier groups are yet now they’re suddenly not capable of taking out a clapped out, obsolete air defence system and even more obsolete air force (all handily concentrated in three bases along the coast) of a country in the grip of a civil war? What the hell has the US tax payer been spending their money on them for then?
Besides:
Libyan Air Defense Would Fade quickly
It’s not that we can’t. It’s that we won’t.
I’m more amused that he was so thoroughly whoosed by such an obvious joke about Israel throwing its support to Quadaffi so that people would knee-jerk into the rebels’ camp.
Reading an interesting New Scientist article on the sophistication of dictatorships in dealing with the internet and dissent now.
I have no doubt whatsoever that we have ‘opinion-shaping’ agents at work on this board.
Of course most of them are freelance but without doubt we have official ‘apologists’ for at least two or three dreadful foreign regimes around here.
It’s the combination of advanced ability to reason combined with legalistic imperviousness to evidence that goes counter to defending the target.
Its one thing to point to the mass murder of civilians 15 years in the past as justification for invasion and occupation of a country.
Its an entirely different thing to try and prevent something that is presently occurring.
We pick winners in conflicts all the time and all too often we have picked the ruthless despot that we think we can control rather than the democratic movement that might lead to communism. Why is enforcinga no fly zone over Libya so fucking controversial? Republicans should introduce a bill and force a vote on it, its really the only thing they are good for.
Yes. McCain is making all the right noises. it’s just Obama’s hand-wringing gutlessness while Gadaffi crushes the rebellion that gets me. Cashed the Nobel cheque already I suppose.
I expect Clinton and Gates to cynically sit by until they can say:
‘Oh noes, he’s won. Oh well, what can you do.’
This is just as cynical a betrayal as Bush 1 over the Iraq rebellions.
Another cynical act is the ‘arms embargo’ applying to both sides. Those with the guns already and those without.
The UK and France should just act together and screw the UN. There are war-crimes in progress and time means lives. And this is only the beginning. What will come after he’s won will be much worse.
No, it isn’t. The Obama Admin did not encourage this before it started.
We have been encouraging them from Day 1.
Besides - if a country continually spouts its mouth off about ‘Freedom. Yay!’ it damn well should be prepared to put up or shut up in situations like this.
Clinton was haunted by his inaction over Rwanda and this will haunt Obama if he doesn’t grow a pair PDQ.