# Licensed counselors/psychologists—need your opinions **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 24, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710 "2008-04-24T17:18:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Contrary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Contrary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrary)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/1 "2008-04-24T17:18:21Z")
Long story not so long, I earned an MS in psychology (industrial/organizational) last fall. I’d wanted to move into counseling but I chose this degree partly as a more practical alternative to a counseling degree, and I was also reluctant to turn my back on over a decade’s worth of business experience. I thought the MS in IO might fill the same niche for me—obviously the focus with IO is less the personal and more about the business, but I had hoped that some of the change management work I’ve done, along with initiatives designed to solve post-merger culture integration issues might net me the same sort of satisfaction I was looking for with the MA or PhD. As much as I’ve enjoyed the IO stuff, I’m rethinking my career path because ultimately it’s not what I want to be doing. So my dilemma is about which degree to pursue. I am looking at another master’s degree with an eye toward getting licensed or a PhD in psych d. If you are licensed (either one or clinical too for that matter), what advice would you give someone considering these two routes? Is the PhD worth it? Would I be able to do what I’m hoping to do with the master’s instead? I face an additional hurdle of being 48 so I’m a bit reluctant to shell out big bucks if I can never ever get out of student loan hell, especially if the master’s would do the trick as well. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/2 "2008-04-24T17:50:09Z")
Not licensed, but clinically trained and license-eligible. As far as I know you cannot get licensed to practice psychology with a MA/MS degree, but can become licensed to counsel with a MSW… check your state’s licensing board to be sure before making the decision about graduate level training. You may find [this online tool](http://www.uky.edu/Education/EDP/psyinfo2.html) helpful in finding your specific state’s rules. If you are in MO (as it appears from your “location”) you would have had to be in a MA/MS program prior to 1990 in order to make the cut for licensure without a “D” ([ref: MO Statutes](http://www.moga.state.mo.us/statutes/C300-399/3370000025.HTM)). That said, you are looking at a Ph.D. or Psy.D. in order to provide independent services as a clinician and billing for those services. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/3 "2008-04-24T17:50:37Z")
I’d go for a master’s if your state licenses at this level. You may want to check vendorship as well to see if you can get 3rd party reimbursement with that degree. Social workers generally can; master’s counselors may or may not. A master’s program might waive some classes based on your previous training. ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/4 "2008-04-24T18:28:31Z")
I am not a licensed clinician, but I am married to one and work for a different one. We have done two searches recently here at the office and I can tell you that it would appear that the MSWs make even more money than the PhDs and PsyDs and certainly more than the MAs. My husband, an MSW, has repeatedly turned down an offer of a PhD from his parents (The money, obviously. They don’t grant doctorates from their 55+ condo on Long Island.) because it would have no effect on his ability to earn a living. MSW. Oh, and my husband is an LICSW - independently licensed in other words - and can bill to a crapload of insurers. ---
**Author:** ![Contrary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Contrary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrary)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/5 "2008-04-24T18:31:38Z")
Should have added that I’m moving to Boston in July. My husband is already there, and I’ll be there shortly. Thanks for the advice so far 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/6 "2008-04-24T18:37:30Z")
[QUOTE=Contrary] Should have added that I’m moving to Boston in July. My husband is already there, and I’ll be there shortly. Thanks for the advice so far 🙂 [/QUOTE] Well, the good news is, despite what you might have heard in Spinal Tap, Boston IS a college town. Also, it’s easier to get licensed in MA than RI where we live. My husband is licensed in both states. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [April 24, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/7 "2008-04-24T19:14:09Z")
> [@](#): > > As far as I know you cannot get licensed to practice psychology with a MA/MS degree In many states, there’s a master’s level counseling license for qualifying MA/MS graduates. In Oregon and some other state’s there’s a master’s psychology license (“psychologist associate” or some other designation). Massachusetts and Rhode Island, as noted above, have master’s level licensure. The Massachusetts School of Professional Psychology and Antioch University in Keene, New Hampshire offer Psy.D. programs. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/8 "2008-04-25T00:12:32Z")
[QUOTE=Caricci] I am not a licensed clinician, but I am married to one and work for a different one. We have done two searches recently here at the office and I can tell you that it would appear that the MSWs make even more money than the PhDs and PsyDs and certainly more than the MAs. My husband, an MSW, has repeatedly turned down an offer of a PhD from his parents (The money, obviously. They don’t grant doctorates from their 55+ condo on Long Island.) because it would have no effect on his ability to earn a living. MSW. Oh, and my husband is an LICSW - independently licensed in other words - and can bill to a crapload of insurers. [/QUOTE] While I agree with you that an MSW is probably the way to go for a 48 year old, it is not true that MSWs make more than PhDs. As a clinical psychologist with a PhD, I have access to lots of insurance company fee schedules. Some pay MSWs and PhDs the same, but the ones that don’t favor the PhD. I have yet to see one that pays MSWs more–it isn’t logical to pay more for less training. No insurer would do that. I suppose if the MSW was setting his/her own rates for self-pay clients and charged more than the PhD next door, maybe the MSW would make more, but that is probably rare. ---
**Author:** ![Contrary](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@Contrary](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrary)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/9 "2008-04-25T00:40:07Z")
I was hoping you’d pop in, Brynda. My age aside, what would be your recommendation overall in terms of which path to pursue? ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/10 "2008-04-25T01:31:09Z")
Wow, thanks. I feel loved. 🙂 MSW, absolutely. As long as you can practice independently with a MSW in your chosen state (this state by state licensure sucks), at your age and with your goals, a MSW is the way to go. I did some training in MA, and when I was there (about 10 years ago, so take this with that in mind), one could practice independently with a MSW. Once you are trained and licensed, try to locate your practice in an underserved area, which probably means a smaller town or even a suburb, if you must be in Boston. I practice in a mid-sized town that is underserved and it is fabulous. My strategy was to call psychologists in various towns and just chat with them about business. In the town I decided on, everyone was welcoming and said that there was plenty of business. That made my decision easy. ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/11 "2008-04-25T12:47:30Z")
[QUOTE=Brynda] While I agree with you that an MSW is probably the way to go for a 48 year old, it is not true that MSWs make more than PhDs. As a clinical psychologist with a PhD, I have access to lots of insurance company fee schedules. Some pay MSWs and PhDs the same, but the ones that don’t favor the PhD. I have yet to see one that pays MSWs more–it isn’t logical to pay more for less training. No insurer would do that. I suppose if the MSW was setting his/her own rates for self-pay clients and charged more than the PhD next door, maybe the MSW would make more, but that is probably rare. [/QUOTE] I mean in salaried positions. I did a great deal of research before our most recent search and it would seem that the MSWs average a MUCH higher salary. I have some personal theories about why that is but certainly no proof. What I think is this: the MSWs have put in more time in the the trenches before applying for the type of employment I was researching. Those with doctorates tend to apply for these jobs with less work experience under their belts. On the other hand, if you obtain fee for service employment in a mental health center, everyone gets the same, whether LMHC, MSW or Ph.D./PsyD. And, the insurer for our students pays the same for mental health care, even to the psychiatrists. So, you never know. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/12 "2008-04-25T19:59:27Z")
According to [Salary.com](http://Salary.com) Licensed clinical social worker salary: > **[Personal Salary Reports and Small Business Compensation Solutions | Salary.com](https://www.salary.com/research/salary)** > > Maximize your salary potential with our FREE Salary Wizard or personalize your Salary to different markets with our Personal Salary Report. Employers develop a compensation strategy to determine what to pay your employees. Psychologist salary: > **[Personal Salary Reports and Small Business Compensation Solutions | Salary.com](https://www.salary.com/research/salary)** > > Maximize your salary potential with our FREE Salary Wizard or personalize your Salary to different markets with our Personal Salary Report. Employers develop a compensation strategy to determine what to pay your employees. Sorry, but your experience is so far off anything I have ever seen or read that I couldn’t let it go uncorrected. Fighting ignorance and all that. ---
**Author:** ![Caricci](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85f322/32.png) [@Caricci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caricci)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/13 "2008-04-25T20:37:47Z")
[QUOTE=Brynda] According to [Salary.com](http://Salary.com) Licensed clinical social worker salary: > **[Salary Data by Job Title, Categories and Industries | Salary Data | Salary.com](https://www.salary.com/research/salary)** > > Explore accurate salary data by job title, category, and industry. Compare pay, understand market value, and see if your salary is competitive. Psychologist salary: > **[Salary Data by Job Title, Categories and Industries | Salary Data | Salary.com](https://www.salary.com/research/salary)** > > Explore accurate salary data by job title, category, and industry. Compare pay, understand market value, and see if your salary is competitive. Sorry, but your experience is so far off anything I have ever seen or read that I couldn’t let it go uncorrected. Fighting ignorance and all that. [/QUOTE] I assure you I was quite careful with my research, and my findings were a bit surprising, but whatever. My research was specific to mental health professionals in a few specific settings, I will concede that. Anyway, the MSW is a more comprehensive degree (more credits required anyway) and gives you not just the skill set of a counselor or therapist but also the skill set of a social worker. Something else to think about. ---
**Author:** ![Brynda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e79b87/32.png) [@Brynda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynda)\ **Post date:** [April 25, 2008, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/14 "2008-04-25T21:04:35Z")
Oh, I am not disputing the value of a MSW, just the earning power vis a vis a PhD. I think it is a great degree, and have known good therapists who have it. ---
**Author:** ![lorene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/65b543/32.png) [@lorene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lorene)\ **Post date:** [April 26, 2008, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/licensed-counselors-psychologists-need-your-opinions/446710/15 "2008-04-26T01:33:03Z")
[QUOTE=Contrary] Should have added that I’m moving to Boston in July. My husband is already there, and I’ll be there shortly. Thanks for the advice so far 🙂 [/QUOTE] I live in Boston, and worked as a therapist (Master’s level) before I changed directions. You can PM me if you’d like to ask some specific questions. [QUOTE=Caricci] On the other hand, if you obtain fee for service employment in a mental health center, everyone gets the same, whether LMHC, MSW or Ph.D./PsyD. [/QUOTE] That was not the case in the clinic where I did FFS. Different degrees merited a different rate/hour.