# Lie down vs. lay down, and why my head may explode **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 14, 2025, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025 "2025-08-14T08:05:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/101 "2025-08-19T00:52:44Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > My speech annoyance is that suddenly the past tense of “pet” is now “pet”, not “petted”. It doesn’t help that the past tense of “bet” is “bet.” ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/102 "2025-08-19T00:53:59Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > It doesn’t help that the past tense of “bet” is “bet.” English is not exactly known for being consistent ☹ ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/103 "2025-08-19T01:00:29Z")
Tell me about it. I’ve taught English to Asian students for 13 years. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/104 "2025-08-19T01:14:45Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > _i_ comes before _a_ just like in chit chat, That’s ablaut reduplication, or the “i-a-o rule” in which English, in reduplicated words, goes from higher to lower vowels. “Flip-flop” instead of “Flop-flip”; “ping-pong” instead of “pong-ping,” “criss-cross,” “dilly-dally,” etc. ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/105 "2025-08-19T01:16:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s ablaut reduplication, or the “i-a-o rule” in which English, in reduplicated words, goes from higher to lower vowels. “Flip-flop” instead of “Flop-flip”; “ping-pong” instead of “pong-ping,” “criss-cross,” “dilly-dally,” etc. The mind may explode when trying to use this rule in a willy-nilly fashion…. (or should it be nilly-willy?) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/106 "2025-08-19T02:31:01Z")
Yeah I don’t know if there’s a corollary rule involving consonant precedence. I don’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/q.q.switcheroo/32/5713_2.png) [@Q.Q.Switcheroo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.Q.Switcheroo)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/107 "2025-08-19T02:45:32Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > That’s ablaut reduplication, or the “i-a-o rule” in which English, in reduplicated words, goes from higher to lower vowels. “Flip-flop” instead of “Flop-flip”; “ping-pong” instead of “pong-ping,” “criss-cross,” “dilly-dally,” etc. For that reason, I always have to remind myself that the waterfall in Western Massachusetts is “Bash Bish” and not “Bish Bash.” ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/108 "2025-08-19T08:16:54Z")
/hijack I was about to correct you, that Bash Bish Falls is in New York State, but you’re right – it’s just across the border: > **[TaconicCopakeFallsAreaTrailMapNorth.pdf](https://parks.ny.gov/documents/parks/TaconicCopakeFallsAreaTrailMapNorth.pdf)** > > 589.82 KB /h ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/109 "2025-08-19T10:52:28Z")
> [@SuntanLotion](#): > > I only read non fiction. > I dont want to get lost in it, I want to learn. A lot of what I’ve learned, especially in childhood, has been from reading fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/110 "2025-08-19T14:57:51Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I am pretty sure all of us here, as well as all native and non-native students of English, are taught the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs. I will fully admit that I was _probably_ taught that, and have since forgotten the actual definitions and effects, mainly because it has little effect on my day-to-day life. I believe I use the correct versions in my speaking/writing, but that is much more through experience than through intentionally choosing the correct form of the verb. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/111 "2025-08-19T18:55:38Z")
I honestly don’t remember the words “transitive” and “intransitive” from grammar school or high school. I feel it’s something I learned the word for later. I mean, we were taught about direct and indirect objects and stuff like that, but the explicit term “transitive” I have no recollection of from that time. I most remember it from doing a spell of English teaching in my 20s. And I know I never formally learned about stuff like first, second, third, zero conditionals until teaching it. (And I’m unlikely now that I’m years away from the material to remember which is which.) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/112 "2025-08-19T22:37:50Z")
I vaguely think I maybe remember the terms from around middle school English. Funny but most of my (very limited) knowledge of formal grammar came from studying German in HS and college. I was taught lots of the technical details & English vocabulary of German grammar. Which transfers since linguistics is the vocabulary & study of the features of all language. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2025, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/113 "2025-08-19T23:03:26Z")
I recall some 35 years ago the head of my legal office circulated a memo on lie vs lay. I never thought it at all difficult. Given what I’ve learned here about less vs fewer and the apostrophe plural, as well as the mantra that usage is descriptive, I’ve pretty much given up hope. I’ll continue to do my best to try to use what I consider “proper” grammar, and will likely think somewhat mildly negatively about folk who use “incorrect” grammar,” but I cannot imagine the situation in which I would ever again “correct” anyone. Anything goes. Race ya to the bottom! ---
**Author:** ![TekirKedi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tekirkedi/32/19028_2.png) [@TekirKedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TekirKedi)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/114 "2025-08-20T00:23:34Z")
I understand your pain. To me it should be “lie down”. And if you teach someone incorrect grammar and pronunciation at an early age, it is very hard to fix it later. When people use the word “orientated” it really annoys me also! PS. Once had a **professor** tell me that the sentence that I had written about a topic (It was Family Studies related because that was what the course was about.) that I can no longer remember was incorrect (She took marks off too!) because she said the word “impact” was a verb only and I could not use it as a noun. Sentence was something along the lines of, “Something had an impact on some other thing.” ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/115 "2025-08-20T00:43:58Z")
If you realized how much of what is today considered “proper” language and shunned that, you’d never be able to complete a sentence again. And about 99% of what people complain about is usage and not grammar. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/116 "2025-08-20T01:07:55Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#): > > It doesn’t help that the past tense (if that’s the right term) of “lie” is “lay”. No, it doesn’t. I bet a lot of the confusion is accounted for by that. The past-tense lay and the causative lay used to be different centuries ago, but they merged as sounds changed. Compare: Modern English: intransitive lie - past tense lay - causative lay Middle English: lien - leie - leyen Old English: liċġan - læġ - leċġan Proto-West Germanic: \*liggjan - lag - laggjan Proto-Germanic: ligjaną - lag - lagjaną Proto-Indo-European: légʰyeti - légʰyet - logʰéyeti ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/117 "2025-08-20T01:13:51Z")
“_You made your own bed, you gotta le’g yeti in it”_ Kinda loses something in translation.😄 ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2025, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025/118 "2025-08-20T14:34:32Z")
It’s all about context. I have several different levels of diction and “correctness” depending on who I’m talking to and in what context I’m talking, and yet another couple depending on what medium I’m writing in and to what audience. That’s just part of effective communication, IMHO. I certainly don’t write the same way on the Dope as I do in a text or for something governed by the Chicago Manual of Style or the Associated Press stylebook or when I was drafting up motions for some defense attorneys I used to work for. (Or “for whom I used to work” if I’m trying to affect an early-to-mid 20th century schoolmarmy vibe.) My creative writing is different yet. And when I’m hanging with my neighborhood buddies, I’m using local dialect, am unguarded about curse words, my pronunciation shifts to more “Chicagoese,” and I don’t talk as I would, say, with my university professor. All the various forms of language are beautiful and absorbingly interesting to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lie-down-vs-lay-down-and-why-my-head-may-explode/1022025.md?page=5)