# Lies, damned lies, and phony statistics? Gun control again. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 15, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280 "2013-08-15T04:10:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/1 "2013-08-15T04:10:37Z")
An old friend made contact via Facebook recently. She was always, um, easily led and is now one of those people internet crackpots look for: all it takes is clicking one ad for a medical secret THEY don’t want to know about and it’s a one-way slide down the rabbit hole. Last week it was how the Human Papiloma Virus vaccine is killing our daughters. This week she seems to have fallen in with, by the ads, militiamen and survivalists. I could drift away from her, like I did twenty-five years ago, but she is a nice person with only good motives and as I age (and as Facebook makes it easier to spread other people’s deceptions) I’ve taken that “Fighting Ignorance” motto to heart. Therefore, I would like to look at Michael Snyder’s blog entry (I don’t think this guy ever saw a conspiracy theory he didn’t adopt as his own) point by point, but I need some help with some of the items. Yes, I could research them myself, but a beautiful part of human culture is our ability to pass along knowledge we have already acquired. > [@](#): > > [18 Little-Known Gun Facts That Prove That Guns Make Us Safer](http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/18-little-known-gun-facts-that-prove-that-guns-make-us-safer) > By Michael Snyder, on August 11th, 2013 > > #1 Over the past 20 years, gun sales have absolutely exploded, but homicides with firearms are down 39 percent during that time and “other crimes with firearms” are down 69 percent. > > #2 A study published in the Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy discovered that nations that have more guns tend to have less crime. > > #3 The nine European nations with the lowest rate of gun ownership rate have a combined murder rate that is three times greater than the nine European nation with the highest rate of gun ownership. > > #4 Almost every mass shooting that has occurred in the United States since 1950 has taken place in a state with strict gun control laws. With just one exception, every public mass shooting in the USA since at least 1950 has taken place where citizens are banned from carrying guns. Despite strict gun regulations, Europe has had three of the worst six school shootings. > > #5 The United States is #1 in the world in gun ownership, and yet it is only 28th in the world in gun murders per 100,000 people. > > #6 The violent crime rate in the United States actually fell from 757.7 per 100,000 in 1992 to 386.3 per 100,000 in 2011. During that same time period, the murder rate fell from 9.3 per 100,000 to 4.7 per 100,000. > > #7 Approximately 200,000 women in the United States use guns to protect themselves against sexual crime every single year. > > #8 Overall, guns in the United States are used 80 times more often to prevent crime than they are to take lives. > > #9 The number of unintentional fatalities due to firearms declined by 58 percent between 1991 and 2011. > > #10 Despite the very strict ban on guns in the UK, the overall rate of violent crime in the UK is about 4 times higher than it is in the United States. In one recent year, there were 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people in the UK. In the United States, there were only 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people during that same year. Do we really want to be more like the UK? > > #11 The UK has approximately 125 percent more rape victims per 100,000 people each year than the United States does. > > #12 The UK has approximately 133 percent more assault victims per 100,000 people each year than the United States does. > > #13 The UK has the fourth highest burglary rate in the EU. > > #14 The UK has the second highest overall crime rate in the EU. > > #15 Down in Australia, gun murders increased by about 19 percent and armed robberies increased by about 69 percent after a gun ban was instituted. > > #16 The city of Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in the United States. So has this reduced crime? Of course not. As I wrote about recently, the murder rate in Chicago was about 17 percent higher in 2012 than it was in 2011, and Chicago is now considered to be “the deadliest global city“. If you can believe it, there were about as many murders in Chicago during 2012 as there was in the entire nation of Japan. > > #17 After the city of Kennesaw, Georgia passed a law requiring every home to have a gun, the crime rate dropped by more than 50 percent over the course of the next 23 years and there was an 89% decline in burglaries. > > #18 According to Gun Owners of America, the governments of the world slaughtered more than 170 million of their own people during the 20th century. The vast majority of those people had been disarmed by their own governments prior to being slaughtered. This was, of course, picked up immediately by Infowars, poisoning the well regarding its reliability. Right off the bat I see that my friend and Mr Snyder and anybody who has ever contributed to Infowars need to have “correlation does not imply causation” pounded into their heads. Works the same for her anti-vax beliefs. #1 I’m having trouble finding data comparing the number of households with guns vs those without guns, especially comparing 1993 (or so) and 2013 (or so). #2 & #3 When debating any issue with strong beliefs on each side, “It’s not that simple,” gets said a lot. The apparent study is here: [http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30\_No2\_KatesMauseronline.pdf](http://www.law.harvard.edu/students/orgs/jlpp/Vol30_No2_KatesMauseronline.pdf) , with the pertinent section starting on page 670. #4 There were states with strict gun control laws in 1950? #5 Ooh! Dueling spreadsheets! We’re 14th, not 28th, behind such lovely garden spots as El Salvador, Swaziland, and South Africa (I wonder if they include murders by and of Prawns?). But my, those Hondurans do like to kill each other! :eek: Though that’s a provisional score, pending more data. [List of countries by firearm-related homicide rates - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) #6 Isn’t that lovely? Now, remembering how correlation ≠ causation, what factors were also in play during that period? I like to credit the rise of realistic violence in video games for that drop. #7 & #8 Cite? #9 Cite? My theory is that the peak of the Baby Bubble reached four years old around 1991, and reports in the Stupid Gun News thread show us how dangerous those little bastards are. #10 through #14 Just tells us that the UK is the violent shithole it’s always (well, the past 2000 years that we know of) been. 😉 #15 Is [patent horseshit,](http://www.factcheck.org/2009/05/gun-control-in-australia/) #16 I can handle this one myself. And “the deadliest global city?” Chicago is eighth on the list of [Global Cities](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_city), and most above us are characterized by very strict gun laws. As are most below us. If anything, I’d take from that list that you need strict gun laws to be a Global city, but we know about correlation and causation. #17 I wish I had access to [Project MUSE - Private Guns, Public Health](http://muse.jhu.edu/books/9780472023820?auth=0), but I’m not institutionalized. Needless to say, it’s not that simple. #18 It ain’t necessarily so, but I need to go to bed. So, we all have our work cut out for us. I appreciate any input WITH RELIABLE CITATIONS from all sides. Play nice and I won’t get mad. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/2 "2013-08-15T16:33:46Z")
> [@](#): > > #8 Overall, guns in the United States are used 80 times more often to prevent crime than they are to take lives. Half of this comes from “[Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun](http://www.guncite.com/gcdgklec.html)”, a paper describing a telephone survey of 4000+ people run in 1993. The paper extrapolated the survey results to say that about 2.5 million “defensive gun uses” occurred in 1992. The paper is definitely worth reading. The other half is a crude estimate of the number of gun-caused deaths in the US in recent years. But it is not possible to tell from the survey how many of the instances actually prevented a crime. The survey also assumes that the responded was the victim. Though, I am not sure who would admit to being the offender. > [@](#): > > #7 Approximately 200,000 women in the United States use guns to protect themselves against sexual crime every single year. This also seems to come from the same survey. It states that rape/sexual assualt was the crime being committed in 8.2% of the 2.5M cases. And 46% of all 2.5M cases involved women. I am not sure how they got the 200k number. ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/3 "2013-08-15T16:51:19Z")
> [@](#): > > #10 Despite the very strict ban on guns in the UK, the overall rate of violent crime in the UK is about 4 times higher than it is in the United States. In one recent year, there were 2,034 violent crimes per 100,000 people in the UK. In the United States, there were only 466 violent crimes per 100,000 people during that same year. The problem with this one is the definition of “violent” crime. In the UK, if two guys exchange blows or threaten to do so, it counts as a “violent” crime. In the US, somebody has to be hospitalized for it to count. This is the problem with comparing any national statistics, which are open to interpretation. Probably the best one to use is murder. Just about all homicides go reported (unlike say sexual assaults) and they are few enough to track all of them (unlike say minor thefts). Even then, the line between manslaughter and murder varies from place to place. So looking at [murders per 100,000 people](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate): UK 1.2, USA 4.8 ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/4 "2013-08-15T16:54:24Z")
There are probably pretty good statistic regarding lawful use of a firearm to wound or kill an attacker in self-defense. I’m not so sure the records that concern “brandishing” the weapon and scaring away the criminal are very complete or accurate, though I know it happens to one extent or another. One thing’s for sure … if you’re attacked by a stronger opponent, or outnumbered, and you have no gun, you may very well become part of a carefully documented set of statistics … they keep excellent records at the morgue and at hospitals. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/5 "2013-08-15T17:12:29Z")
Defensive uses of guns is like rape in a way - the figures are fuzzy because it doesn’t always get reported to the police, albeit for different reasons. > [@](#): > > In the UK, if two guys exchange blows or threaten to do so, it counts as a “violent” crime. In the US, somebody has to be hospitalized for it to count. I find this difficult to believe. In what US state do you assert that hospitalization is necessary before someone can be charged with a violent crime? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/6 "2013-08-15T17:45:08Z")
Perhaps for a rough estimate of severity? After all, one doesn’t want to be charged with attempted manslaughter for bopping one’s brother-in-law in the nose. And martial arts clouds the issue, a brown belt in _shotokan_ karate is pretty dangerous, whereas a zillion-degree black belt in\* tae kwan do\* is just a lame-o with a _gi._ ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/7 "2013-08-15T18:59:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I find this difficult to believe. In what US state do you assert that hospitalization is necessary before someone can be charged with a violent crime? I am sure that every US state has its own rules for reporting violence. But for comparing countries, [FBI statistics](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime) are usually used. Their violent crime consists of murder (and non-negligent manslaughter), forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. And the last one requires either a serious injury or a deadly weapon. So a fist fight in a pub would usually not count, unless somebody was holding a broken bottle. > [@SirGalahad](#): > > There are probably pretty good statistic regarding lawful use of a firearm to wound or kill an attacker in self-defense. I’m not so sure the records that concern “brandishing” the weapon and scaring away the criminal are very complete or accurate, though I know it happens to one extent or another. Just for reference: [US statistics for 2010](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr61/nvsr61_04.pdf) (pg. 140) 31,672 firearm-caused deaths breaks down to suicides (19392), homicides (11078), unintentional (606), legal intervention/war (344), and undetermined (252). 16,259 homicides were caused by firearms (11078), sharp object (1799), suffocation (544), impact (123), fire or flame (89), poisoning (79), drowning (52), transportation (39), falls (12), and others. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/8 "2013-08-15T20:11:51Z")
> [@AdamF](#): > > I am sure that every US state has its own rules for reporting violence. But for comparing countries, [FBI statistics](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime) are usually used. Their violent crime consists of murder (and non-negligent manslaughter), forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. And the last one requires either a serious injury or a deadly weapon. So a fist fight in a pub would usually not count, unless somebody was holding a broken bottle. Your cite doesn’t say that. > [@](#): > > Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force. No mention of hospitalization, serious injury, or deadly weapons. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/9 "2013-08-15T21:50:07Z")
[FBI UCR Program](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in-the-u.s.-2011/violent-crime/violent-crime): > [@](#): > > In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and non-negligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. These terms have specific legal definitions and correspond to specific offenses in criminal law. “Violent crime”, on the other hand, is a politician’s term that can mean anything. Aggravated assault according to [FBI](http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2010/crime-in-the-u.s.-2010/violent-crime/aggravatedassaultmain): > [@](#): > > The FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program defines aggravated assault as an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. The UCR Program further specifies that this type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by other means likely to produce death or great bodily harm. Attempted aggravated assault that involves the display of—or threat to use—a gun, knife, or other weapon is included in this crime category because serious personal injury would likely result if the assault were completed. Aggravated assault is further discussed [here](http://www.justia.com/criminal/docs/uniform-crime-reporting-handbook/assault.html), and some examples are given. Aggravated assault: “During an argument over a parking space, one man pushed another to the ground. The man on the ground suffered an abrasion and a broken wrist. The individual who pushed him was later arrested for assault.” Simple assault: “Several bar patrons were watching a football game on television. The supporters of the two teams exchanged heated words that led to a fist fight. The bartender called the police. None of the participants cooperated, so the police could not determine who started the fight. The police arrested six patrons who had suffered bruises and minor cuts and charged them with affray.” ([Affray](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affray)is an older offense mostly equivalent to simple assault and used in some states. In the UK it would be [counted as a violent crime.](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1196941/The-violent-country-Europe-Britain-worse-South-Africa-U-S.html#ixzz2HQDkC3re)) ---
**Author:** ![AdamF](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/adamf/32/6246_2.png) [@AdamF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AdamF)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/10 "2013-08-15T22:28:28Z")
> [@](#): > > #18 According to Gun Owners of America, the governments of the world slaughtered more than 170 million of their own people during the 20th century… The 170M comes from this [site](http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/20TH.HTM), though it has been updated in 2005 to 262M (Gun Owners of America should keep up with their propaganda). The sentiment is also better illustrated [here](http://www.mercyseat.net/gun_genocide.html). Some of the facts are correct, but they are mixed with a lot of speculation. > [@](#): > > … The vast majority of those people had been disarmed by their own governments prior to being slaughtered. This is debatable. All dictators like to disarm the society. Some of them mean to kill a lot of their people, most don’t. Likewise, while a few gun registration programs were followed by gun confiscation, most were not. It’s like saying: “According to XYZ, distracted drivers in the US have killed more than 1 million people during the 20th century. The vast majority of those drivers have been previously issued a driving licence by the government.” This is technically true, but it implies something that is not. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2013, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/11 "2013-08-15T22:41:01Z")
> [@AdamF](#): > > In the US, somebody has to be hospitalized for it to count. Do you have a cite for that? Because I’m finding that a bit hard to believe. Edit: Never mind. I can see that others have addressed this. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/12 "2013-08-16T14:40:11Z")
[QUOTE=AdamF] These terms have specific legal definitions and correspond to specific offenses in criminal law. “Violent crime”, on the other hand, is a politician’s term that can mean anything. [/quote] I was asking (as was **Odesio** ) for a cite specific to your claim that hospitalization was a necessary element for the crime to be included in the statistics. Not just threats, actual hospitalization. > [@](#): > > Simple assault: “Several bar patrons were watching a football game on television. The supporters of the two teams exchanged heated words that led to a fist fight. The bartender called the police. None of the participants cooperated, so the police could not determine who started the fight. The police arrested six patrons who had suffered bruises and minor cuts and charged them with affray.” You said rather specifically - > [@](#): > > So a fist fight in a pub would usually not count, unless somebody was holding a broken bottle. And yet here we have a fist fight in a pub, with no mention either of weapons or hospitalization, that was apparently included in the statistics. _:shrugs:_ Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/13 "2013-08-16T15:04:55Z")
I love when gun advocates try to point to the rate of violent crime in the UK to support their arguments. Let’s set aside concerns about the validity of the estimates of violent crime rates in the UK - there are known issues with what is counted as violent crime there. The UK data includes “crimes against persons”, so all robberies get counted under that category, inflating that number relative to US figures. See [here for more discussion](http://blog.skepticallibertarian.com/2013/01/12/fact-checking-ben-swann-is-the-uk-really-5-times-more-violent-than-the-us/). Let’s just focus on the logic of the argument, taking their numbers as given. If the UK is really four times more violent than the US, why is their firearms homicide rate 90 times lower than ours? [3.6 US versus 0.04 UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate) Why is their overall homicide rate four times lower than ours? [4.8 US versus 1.2 UK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate) The argument that gun advocates are always making is that violence (or violent people) causes firearm murders. They argue that if firearms were illegal, criminals would have them but law abiding citizens would not. They argue that if murderers didn’t have guns, they would just use something else. So, when they argue that the UK is a cesspool of violence relative to the US, they have to answer then why their rates of homicide are much lower than ours, and why their rate of firearms homicide is ridiculously lower than ours. To the contrary, the logic of their argument shows that if you simply remove firearms from an ultraviolent country, you do in fact reduce homicides, and outlaws don’t have guns. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2013, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/14 "2013-08-16T23:20:38Z")
Interesting points, especially about GB. Please, do go on. (Where’s the temple-tapping thoughtful smiley when I need it? :smack: doesn’t make the same point. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2013, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/15 "2013-08-17T02:26:39Z")
Forget it, campers. She’s a Rand Paul supporter, and I get all stabby around them. Usually they are guys half her age and need a little [del]stabbing[/del] getting hit over the head with a clue stick, but this isn’t going to be worth the trouble for any of us. Thirty years around her pompous blowhard of an ex-husband seems to have broken her. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/16 "2013-08-18T14:23:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Forget it, campers. She’s a Rand Paul supporter, and I get all stabby around them. Usually they are guys half her age and need a little [del]stabbing[/del] getting hit over the head with a clue stick, but this isn’t going to be worth the trouble for any of us. Thirty years around her pompous blowhard of an ex-husband seems to have broken her. ☹ Well that’s too bad. I was kind of looking forward to picking away at these. At the same time, I totally admit to suffering from “someone on the internet is wrong” disorder, so you’ve saved me from wasting time by calling off the dogs. Just FYI, the one item about the publication in the Harvard journal is largely bullshit, in that it was not peer reviewed, that the journal is a student publication with a right wing bent, and that the data apparently has basic errors, like misstating the rate of homicide in Lithuania by an order of magnitude. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/17 "2013-08-18T16:33:07Z")
[Public Law 104-208, passed by Congress on September 30, 1996](http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-104publ208/pdf/PLAW-104publ208.pdf) (Official GPO link - PDF Warning): > [@](#): > > That none of the funds made available for injury prevention and control at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention may be used to advocate or promote gun control: This budget bill for FY1997 was the start to prevent the formal collection and research of any gun statistics by the government. It was pushed through by the NRA using their NRA-friendly Members of Congress. They are been subsequent successful bans with various legislation since, all designed to prevent the public from understanding real statistics about gun violence in America. [ul] [li][Blackout: How the NRA suppressed gun violence research](http://tv.msnbc.com/2013/01/14/blackout-how-the-nra-suppressed-gun-violence-research/%5B/li%5D%5Bli%5Dhttp://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/26/us/26guns.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0%5B/li%5D%5Bli%5Dhttp://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/12/31/1175032/-NRA-s-underhanded-lobbying-to-stop-gun-violence-research%5B/li%5D%5B/ul%5D) ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/18 "2013-08-18T21:34:11Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Well that’s too bad. I was kind of looking forward to picking away at these. > > At the same time, I totally admit to suffering from “someone on the internet is wrong” disorder, so you’ve saved me from wasting time by calling off the dogs. > > Just FYI, the one item about the publication in the Harvard journal is largely bullshit, in that it was not peer reviewed, that the journal is a student publication with a right wing bent, and that the data apparently has basic errors, like misstating the rate of homicide in Lithuania by an order of magnitude. Please don’t let me stop you! My giving up hope on a single person does not make that list any more accurate. I’m sure the Peanut Gallery is full of people looking for answers. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/19 "2013-08-18T22:15:50Z")
The statistics about Australia are wrong, according to this: [Faking waves: How the NRA and pro-gun Americans abuse Australian crime stats](http://m.phys.org/news/2013-01-faking-nra-pro-gun-americans-abuse.html) The 69% increase in armed robberies seems to be pinched from the NRA’s claim that:\* “In the inner west, robberies committed with firearms skyrocketed more than 70% over the previous year, figures show.” Rather than giving the national trend over many years, the NRA chose one part, of one city, in one state and just two years of data. The NRA’s use of stats is misleading. Around Australia, robberies using firearms have declined from over 1500 per year in the 1990s to 1100 per year. \* Any statistic that claims crime against individuals rose as a result of the gun ban is suspect because Australians didn’t routinely carry guns before the ban. That site also says the 19% figure is made up. I know some pro gun groups have cited the large rise in the homicide rate in the year that guns were banned, but that’s because the guns were banned after a massacre. 354 people were killed nation wide in 1996, and 35 of them were the victims of that one massacre. That single event drove up the rate, and was the inspiration for the subsequent gun buy back and ban. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2013, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280/20 "2013-08-19T01:07:08Z")
Nice! This will be a multi-part reply because I think Facebook has a limit on the size of posts. Yeah, I’m back on it. I’m a liberal and believe that the only reason a person would disagree with me is that I haven’t said enough. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lies-damned-lies-and-phony-statistics-gun-control-again/666280.md?page=2)