# Life Begins at Conception - Arguments against?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [April 14, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328 "2008-04-14T17:35:50Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/1 "2008-04-14T17:35:50Z")
What are the argument against the idea that life begins at conception? It seems self evident that life begins at the point of conception, but this point gets argued about in the abortion debate - for example, Senator Obama, the other day, said that he did not know when life began.
So what are the arguments that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is not life? If a zygote is not a form of life, what is it? Why is this even a point to be argued? I do not see why it matters when life begins. The more important questions are:
What type of life do we want to value and protect?
When does personhood begin?
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### Author:  [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/2 "2008-04-14T17:42:18Z")
Sperm cells are alive.
Egg cells are alive.
When you combine the two, the result is _still_ alive.
Life doesn’t begin at conception, it _continues_ at conception.
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### Author:  [@Burton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Burton)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/3 "2008-04-14T17:43:05Z")
When does personhood begin? I would say outside the womb. However I agree there’s a distinct separate life from the mother from from the moment the first cells divide.
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### Author:  [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/4 "2008-04-14T17:45:25Z")
First define “life” and then we’ll talk.
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/5 "2008-04-14T17:49:17Z")
In the context of abortion debates, when people talk about “life” beginning they’re not talking about whether cells are alive or dead. They’re talking about when _a_ life (of a person) begins. If they were being intellectually rigourous, they’d be asking, “When do the characteristics of a person which make its life worthy of respect attach to the zygote?” And this question, of course, admits of many possible answers about which there can be endless disagreement.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/6 "2008-04-14T17:51:24Z")
“Life begins” over a billion years ago. The genetically distinct existence of an embryo begins at conception. Personhood begins to emerge much later, as the brain develops. And it’s personhood that matters; that’s why, for example, people whose bodies are brain dead but are still breathing can be legally dismantled for their organs; the body lives, but THEY are dead. That’s also why I’m not prosecuted for murder if I scratch myself, killing millions of cells.
Defining life as beginning at conception doesn’t fit how we use the term legally elsewhere, and if taken seriously leads to absurdities.
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### Author:  [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/7 "2008-04-14T17:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
What are the argument against the idea that life begins at conception?
[/QUOTE]
Life began **once,** about two billion years ago. Conception does not **begin** life, it **continues** it, by the merger of two living things, the egg and the sperm – neither of which is considered a human being with rights, so why should that change the moment they come together?
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### Author:  [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/8 "2008-04-14T17:53:57Z")
It’s up to you; there’s no set boundary, you get to choose how you use your words. And, clearly, people disagree about how they’d like to use their words. But the idea that there’s some objective sharp cut-off point or fixed specific criteria for personhood is about as silly as the idea that there’s a particular sharp cut-off point at which N many grains of sand make a heap.
Incidentally, you may want to ask yourself why you care about what labels to apply; it may turn out that what you’re really getting at is orthogonal to the question of what labels are appropriate. E.g., lurking in the background is, of course, the issue of when it is appropriate to terminate a pregnancy. And whether or not you call the fetus a person, the issue remains; one has to appeal to something other than simply “Oh, I prefer to use this label” in order to settle the matter as to what are appropriate actions. One could just as plausibly say "Sure, I’m ok calling the fetus a ‘person’ if you insist, but termination of pregnancies is still morally acceptable to me. With this usage of the term ‘person’, I don’t accept that it is always wrong to end the life of a ‘person’ " as anything else. The issues stand on their own, apart from the labels.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/9 "2008-04-14T17:56:19Z")
> [@](#):
>
> What are the argument against the idea that life begins at conception? It seems self evident that life begins at the point of conception, but this point gets argued about in the abortion debate - for example, Senator Obama, the other day, said that he did not know when life began.
>
> So what are the arguments that a zygote, embryo, or fetus is not life? If a zygote is not a form of life, what is it? Why is this even a point to be argued? I do not see why it matters when life begins. The more important questions are:
>
> What type of life do we want to value and protect?
> When does personhood begin?
A zygote at the time of conception is alive in the same sense that your appendix is - it’s composed of living cells. But like your appendix, a newly conceived zygote is incapable of independent existence. It’s alive but not a life.
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### Author:  [@Two\_and\_a\_Half\_Inches\_of\_Fun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Two_and_a_Half_Inches_of_Fun)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/10 "2008-04-14T18:01:11Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton]
Life began **once,** about two billion years ago. Conception does not **begin** life, it **continues** it, by the merger of two living things, the egg and the sperm – neither of which is considered a human being with rights, so why should that change the moment they come together?
[/QUOTE]
Ok, that makes sense. I guess both sides are wrong.
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### Author:  [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/11 "2008-04-14T18:15:17Z")
To my mind, the answer is that a “life” worthy of legal protections begins when the developing embryo develops the capacity for human conciousness - I believe somewhere around the third trimester.
Sperm cell, eggs, immediately fertilized eggs - all are alive, but none yet possess that which is worthy of legal defence.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/12 "2008-04-14T18:16:58Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
Ok, that makes sense. I guess both sides are wrong.
[/QUOTE]
No. One side is speaking of personhood, and the other is using whatever rhetoric it thinks will let them oppress women.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/13 "2008-04-14T18:20:36Z")
There is no single point in time when personhood begins. Becoming a person is a process, not an event. So any time we pick is going to be arbitrary, to some degree. If we were to look at brain function, one might argue that personhood doesn’t happen until well after birth, or one might argue that personhood begins with the first synapse. Personally, I think we should start with the premise that we, as a society, aren’t going to allow babies to be killed once they are born. Then, I think it makes sense not to kill a fetus in the womb that could be viable outside the womb. Then I’d back up a few weeks just to be safe. That probably puts it at about 5-6 months into pregnancy.
Without invoking a religious argument, though, I can’t see calling an embryo or a fetus without brain function a person.
If the life or health of the mother is danger, then another analysis needs to take place.
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### Author:  [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/14 "2008-04-14T18:23:13Z")
With regard to abortion, when life begins is IMHO irrelevant. If a woman wants an abortion badly enough, I’d rather she got it in a proper hospital than in a back room in some house.
> [@Brainglutton](#):
>
> Life began **once** , about two billion years ago.
Not to nitpick, but cite? For the **once** , and the time, that is. Haven’t we found fossils [3.8 billion years old](http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/space/life/beginnings/recipe.shtml), perhaps even [4.2 billion years ago](http://setiathome.ssl.berkeley.edu/~korpela/astro10/html/lec8/img7.html)?
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### Author:  [@nd\_n8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nd_n8)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/15 "2008-04-14T19:41:20Z")
From a philosophical standpoint Life (not just living cells but a living organism) begins at the same time Death begins. At some point just beyond zygote I believe, excess cells begin to die and be replaced (as opposed to just cellular division). When death is possible, life is possible and vice versa.
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### Author:  [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)
#### Post date: [April 14, 2008, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/16 "2008-04-14T19:46:18Z")
What **John Mace** said.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/17 "2008-04-15T02:42:40Z")
[QUOTE=Squink]
Sperm cells are alive.
Egg cells are alive.
When you combine the two, the result is _still_ alive.
Life doesn’t begin at conception, it _continues_ at conception.
[/QUOTE]
Which is why masterbation is murder.
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### Author:  [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/18 "2008-04-15T02:55:58Z")
Ok… so where do [chimeras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chimera_(genetics)) fit into this? Do they get two or more souls then?
If not, which one dies? Or does it go away? How’s all that work within a life-at-conception framework. Which seems often to be more a theistic position… hence my invocation of “soul.”
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### Author:  [@Anomalous\_Reading](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anomalous_Reading)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/19 "2008-04-15T02:57:54Z")
[QUOTE=Two and a Half Inches of Fun]
What type of life do we want to value and protect?
When does personhood begin?
[/QUOTE]
I think your questions are out of order. It’s easier to remove/kill what isn’t a person…
And I’m not sure others are inclined to consider fetuses as persons - not until a certain point. And at that point they aren’t likely to argue that its without rights.
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### Author:  [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)
#### Post date: [April 15, 2008, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-at-conception-arguments-against/445328/20 "2008-04-15T02:59:03Z")
[QUOTE=gonzomax]
Which is why masterbation is murder.
[/QUOTE]
Well, no more so than, say, getting a skin peel.
Anyoo, sure, life begins or continues or whatever at conception. I’m still pro-choice.
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