# Life Begins When You Realize that Women have Rights **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 27, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704 "2008-10-27T00:56:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2008, 1:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/61 "2008-11-08T13:53:43Z")
> [@J\_Brisby](#): > > Why, you think it would fire up the white-trash base? I thought that was Sarah Palin’s job. Why, you’re just precious! ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/62 "2008-11-11T18:17:38Z")
> [@Ed\_Zotti](#): > > I think such a question is best answered this way: Is there a level of defectiveness in a newborn that would justify killing it? As Cecil points out in today’s column, the Spartans obviously thought the answer was yes. Similarly, in China some families think a newborn has a level of girlness that justifies its abandonment. So you tell me. Okay, well, then let me be more specific. If, at 20 weeks of pregnancy, amniocentesis identifies a catastrophic defect that will surely lead to severe mental and/or physical handicaps, would you oppose abortion in such a case? You tell me. ---
**Author:** ![Ed\_Zotti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/fbc32d/32.png) [@Ed\_Zotti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ed_Zotti)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/63 "2008-11-11T23:15:00Z")
> [@JillGat](#): > > Okay, well, then let me be more specific. If, at 20 weeks of pregnancy, amniocentesis identifies a catastrophic defect that will surely lead to severe mental and/or physical handicaps, would you oppose abortion in such a case? No. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2008, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/64 "2008-11-12T15:15:58Z")
**Ed Zotti** said: > [@](#): > > I think such a question is best answered this way: Is there a level of defectiveness in a newborn that would justify killing it? As Cecil points out in today’s column, the Spartans obviously thought the answer was yes. Similarly, in China some families think a newborn has a level of girlness that justifies its abandonment. So you tell me. I think one could reasonbly argue that if the fetus is terminated before it becomes a baby, that prevents the need for killing the baby after it is born. So now we’re back to trying to determine if a fetus is the same moral status as a newborn. **J\_Brisby** said: > [@](#): > > Far as I’m concerned, if someone wants to leave their baby in a dumpster, that’s their business. I’m not terribly exercised over the killing of babies. Last thing we need is one more white-trash asshole driving slow in the left lane. I thought about paraphrasing that statement into a comment about slapping around loudmouths, but decided that wouldn’t pass the board rules outside of the Pit. > [@](#): > > I’m more interested in your apparent belief that cats are aware of themselves as individuals. If you really, really, REALLY believe that, can you explain to me exactly why killing a cat ISN’T murder? I guess the point of contention is what it means to be aware of yourself as an individual. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/65 "2008-11-13T19:02:27Z")
I can see this discussion rapidly degenerating into a heated debate about the morality of felinicide. Now them’s fightin’ words. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/66 "2008-11-13T19:18:47Z")
> [@JillGat](#): > > I can see this discussion rapidly degenerating into a heated debate about the morality of felinicide. [He’s already dead.](http://www.deadoraliveinfo.com/dead.nsf/fnames-nf/Fellini+Federico) ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2008, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/67 "2008-11-14T20:39:42Z")
> [@JillGat](#): > > Okay, well, then let me be more specific. If, at 20 weeks of pregnancy, amniocentesis identifies a catastrophic defect that will surely lead to severe mental and/or physical handicaps, would you oppose abortion in such a case? > > You tell me. But Cecil drew the line at about 25 weeks, so your example involves 2 factors. (In another thread, I wondered whether the line should be placed at 30 weeks). Personally, I would be open to considering a ban on all abortions after 30 weeks, though I would require a comprehensive and empirical presentation. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/68 "2008-11-15T17:16:59Z")
> [@arcane\_eye](#): > > I was shocked by your highly ignorant column on “when life begins”. > You have a very conservative approach, and a misogynistic one at that. > … Do we have any reason to believe this person even bothered to check this thread since she (or he, I’m not convinced this is not a parody of the legendary “FemiNazi”) dumped this load here? ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/69 "2008-11-21T12:56:08Z")
Just noting that **Cecil** has taken a second column on this question in today’s column (21-Nov-2008), with the OP by **arcane-eye** as the trigger: [When does human life begin (revisited)? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2825/round-2-when-does-human-life-begin) ---
**Author:** ![Mike\_Sabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Mike\_Sabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mike_Sabella)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/70 "2008-11-21T13:27:45Z")
Women don’t always have the right to their own body. She can’t drink before she’s 21; she can’t buy cigarettes until she’s 19 here in New Jersey, and she can’t smoke them anywhere in public; she has to wear a seatbelt when she drives; she can never, ever take a drug not approved by the FDA, and she can’t charge anyone money to have sex with her. There are limits to the rights a woman has to her body just like there are limits we all have to free speech (can’t yell “fire” in a crowded theatre). So, the argument that a “woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her own body” has its limitations. ---
**Author:** ![jcooney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/67e7ee/32.png) [@jcooney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jcooney)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/71 "2008-11-21T14:50:40Z")
Arcane, You need to get a life, and quit blaming men for your insecurities. Overpowering women with the penis nonsense. Maybe you women should be a little proactive, if you feel this strongly, and keep your legs closed. You are the ones using that thing for power, and advancement, and besides, we men are just doing what we have been programmed for, for millions of years. Why not complain to God, maybe he will listen. You have options and choice,keep that thing to yourself, and you won’t have this problemespecially since it is choice you pine for, Nucklehead Women’s Libber Fanatic!!! ---
**Author:** ![Sail1993](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sail1993](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sail1993)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/72 "2008-11-21T15:48:12Z")
Actually I thought Cecil’s response was well thought out and presents compelling arguments regarding the abortion issue. The problem with the radical “It’s my body and I can do whatever I want” argument is that it completely lacks any concept of personal responsibilty. “I had sex knowing full well that I could get pregnant but too bad. Just suck that baby right out.” If people want control of their own bodies (and I think we should have it) then perhaps they should also be able to exercise a little self-control and accept responsibility for their actions. Just my humble opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/73 "2008-11-21T15:54:26Z")
> [@Sail1993](#): > > If people want control of their own bodies (and I think we should have it) then perhaps they should also be able to exercise a little self-control and accept responsibility for their actions. How is having an abortion inconsistent with taking responsibility for one’s actions? ---
**Author:** ![bobthebuilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/c67d28/32.png) [@bobthebuilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobthebuilder)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/74 "2008-11-21T16:00:36Z")
> [@J\_Brisby](#): > > Far as I’m concerned, if someone wants to leave their baby in a dumpster, that’s their business. I’m not terribly exercised over the killing of babies. Last thing we need is one more white-trash asshole driving slow in the left lane. I question how you can justify the killing of something that is human. A born child is a human being regardless of his mental capacity or ability to be self aware. Should we be like the nazis and kill any mentally handicapped people? Maybe just the ones that we arbitrarily conclude are not self-aware. If something cannot communicate how do you know if its self-aware? Honestly it makes me sick to my stomach that their are people who think it is okay to throw a baby in dumpster. ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2008, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704/75 "2008-11-21T16:35:01Z")
\ Sigh. Cecil, you really opened up a can of Red Wigglers for us moderators, didn’t you? Thanks a lot, big guy… Take any abortion arguments to _Great Debates_. In the meantime, I’m closing this. \ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-begins-when-you-realize-that-women-have-rights/469704.md?page=3)