# Life continues beyond physical death. Is this proof of God's existance. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2002, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256 "2002-08-16T22:32:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![vertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3ec8ea/32.png) [@vertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 17, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/41 "2002-08-17T23:48:05Z")
They say a picture is worth a thousand words, and [this](http://ndeweb.com/Person.htm) says volumes to me. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/42 "2002-08-18T00:01:43Z")
Once again, **Apos** beat me to the punch. He’s absolutely right - the fact that the woman remembers this experience doesn’t mean that all that stuff actually occurred in the timeframe she believes it did. The description of the surgery seems legit, though - I found this link that describes a similar procedure: [http://www.azstarnet.com/health/news/20515-brainsurgery.shtml](http://www.azstarnet.com/health/news/20515-brainsurgery.shtml) But this doesn’t even come close to proving an afterlife. A hallucination from oxygen deprivation seems a much more likely explanation. First of all, there’s no way to prove that all consciousness ceases when the blood is removed. Second, even if there were no consciousness for most of the duration of the operation, the hallucination could have occured at the beginning, as she was losing consciousness, and then remembered as an event that lasted much longer. For pete’s sake, I’ve had dreams that lasted for SEVERAL DAYS _in the dream_, but I certainly wasn’t asleep that long. Events in the subconscious mind are highly compressed with respect to time. Even this Sabom guy admits that these people aren’t actually dead when they have the experience: [http://www.near-death.com/experiences/news6.html](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/news6.html) > [@](#): > > Sabom agrees that a near-death experience is not a trip to the afterlife. “These are not literal visits to heaven and hell,” he said. “These are powerful spiritual experiences that are occurring near-death, not after death.” Substitute “hallucination” for “spritual experience”, and there you have it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/43 "2002-08-18T00:59:12Z")
Being a Near Death Experiencer is not easy. When I shared my experience with the religious folk they said: “Don’t believe your experience. It can’t be found in the Bible, therefore it is false. False experiences like that are caused by Satan. Him and his demons can act like God to fool people like you. You should pray a lot and talk to a priest.” When I shared my experience with the scientific folk they said: "Don’t believe your experience. There are no studies, cites, theories, data, etc., etc. to support it, therefore it is false. False experiences like that are caused by hallucinations, drugs, lack of oxygen, etc., etc. These experiences can fool you and make you think funky. You should talk to a doctor and maybe take some prozac. I, in my wide-eyed, ignorance wondered how so many people knew more about my experience than I did. Especially since none of them ever had a one. Little did I know. So, I started a web site for Near Death Experiencers. We can talk in support groups and on the new message board about the things we felt. About the healings, the future, the peace and love of it all. It has been, in my opinion, successful. I have decided not to take the advice above, after all, I was the one who had the experience. Most other NDEers feel the same. What happens in the Near Death Experience is real. It is just as the experiencer says it is. I do not just believe in a spirit world and eternal life, I know it exists because I was there, and can return through meditation when I want. No judgements for the religious and scientific folk, they do what they believe is right. In the final analysis all will learn in their time, and they will be pleased. Well at least most of them, you can’t please everyone. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/44 "2002-08-18T01:03:49Z")
I made no attempt to hide my identity. My web site is listed on the registration. Yes, I wrote the page. So what. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/45 "2002-08-18T01:29:17Z")
**lekatt** , if you want to believe it, more power to you. Personally, I was quite disappointed to read about the ketamine hypothesis, as I was quite hopeful that credible evidence was building for these experiences. But when I look at the data as a scientist, it may be fascinating, and even inspiring, but it is _not_ proof. Even tho I’ve known people who’ve had NDE’s who have turned their lives around and become far better people because of the experience it still does not prove continuation of consciousness after brain destruction. One thing I’ve learned over time is that _my experiences are not universal_ and that _the intensity of my emotions over some issue does not necessarily correlate with the truth about the issue_. And a good scientist should not tell you that your experience was false. Only that the data is inadequate to prove the truth of your hypothesis. Besides, life’s _supposed_ to be a mystery! What fun is it to know the ending before we get there? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/46 "2002-08-18T01:31:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I made no attempt to hide my identity. My web site is listed on the registration. Yes, I wrote the page. So what. \*\* Well, it is more aboveboard if you say so when you are citing yourself. The original question you asked was whether or not a NDE proved the existence of God. From your OP:\*\* "Due to Near Death Experiences, life after death has been proven. … Does this mean that God’s existence has been proven or not?"\*\* The first claim isn’t true. “Near Death” is the same as “not dead” isn’t it? The question about the existence of God has been answered. No, it doesn’t prove His existence. Any number of things besides your God could be responsible for your experience whether it was real or just hallucinatory. No one is trying to take your experience away from you. Get whatever from it you can and don’t berate the rest of us who don’t get the same thing from it. ---
**Author:** ![vertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3ec8ea/32.png) [@vertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/47 "2002-08-18T01:34:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*So, I started a web site for Near Death Experiencers. We can talk in support groups and on the new message board about the things we felt. About the healings, the future, the peace and love of it all. It has been, in my opinion, successful. > > I have decided not to take the advice above, after all, I was the one who had the experience. Most other NDEers feel the same. What happens in the Near Death Experience is real. It is just as the experiencer says it is. I do not just believe in a spirit world and eternal life, I know it exists because I was there, and can return through meditation when I want… \*\* Right. So basically you never wanted to have a discussion, you just wanted to evangelize your opinion through this forum, And, I’m sorry, but you _were_ duplicitous when you cited your own page, knowing that people would assume that the site you posted was independent of you. The “So what?” is we actually care about open discourse and debate. I don’t think anyone takes kindly to being manipulated by someone else’s personal agenda (or the attempt to manipulate as it turned out here). So if you are serious about openly discussing the merits of your OP (and thus what you say on your site), then quit shooting down the fact that most people have a problem with your ‘evidence’. You had an experience. You can continue to relive that experience. Why do you assume that your experience is ‘other worldly’? It sounds like you never considered that you may actually be suffering from some incapacity (or extra capacity, depending on your point of view) that causes you to have incorrect perceptions about reality. I’m not saying this is the case, but how can you dismiss it so quickly? When my Grandfather was becoming senile, he swore he was back in the trenches in WWI. I think you would agree it was his mind playing tricks on him. It was reality in the extreme from his point of view. So now you are saying that you can tell the difference between a ‘distorted reality’ and the real thing. I say take a few steps back and fully refute the possibility that you imagined this and that imagining NDEs seems to be somewhat common. I don’t think you ever even considered that. Why not? And if you are going to tell me that you know reality when you see it, then you are not worth conversing with in this forum. So, either shape up and participate in open and _honest_ discussion, or please go away. I’m sure there is an alt.I.Know.Better.Than.All.Of.You newsgroup in which you would be hailed as a King. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/48 "2002-08-18T03:26:34Z")
—It is just as the experiencer says it is.— Sure, I don’t tihnk people disagree with you on this point. —I do not just believe in a spirit world and eternal life, I know it exists because I was there, and can return through meditation when I want. — This is the jump that people are not so sure about. You claim an experience. I don’t doubt you had it. But you also have a hypothesis about what the experience _means_, and this most people are rightly saying is unproven. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/49 "2002-08-18T04:08:51Z")
> [@](#): > > vert said: So basically you never wanted to have a discussion, you just wanted to evangelize your opinion through this forum From the description of the “Great Debates” forum: > [@](#): > > This is also the place for religious debates and (if you feel you must) witnessing. So Lekatt put this thread right where it belonged. As a newbie, he didn’t achieve a perfect post. It would have been nice if he had mentioned the link was to his own web pages, but that’s hardly an unforgivable sin. Lekatt’s extraordinary experiences have convinced him that God exists. He may even have a valid proof, with the slight drawback that it is not possible for him to communicate that proof to others. If that weren’t the way of things then God and the afterlife (yes or no) would be common knowledge, and no one would have to try to explain their gnosis. There’s no real foul here, cut the guy a break. -Welcome to the boards lekatt 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![vertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/3ec8ea/32.png) [@vertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/50 "2002-08-18T04:41:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Squink \* > \*\*From the description of the “Great Debates” forum: So Lekatt put this thread right where it belonged. As a newbie, he didn’t achieve a perfect post. It would have been nice if he had mentioned the link was to his own web pages, but that’s hardly an unforgivable sin. > Lekatt’s extraordinary experiences have convinced him that God exists. He may even have a valid proof, with the slight drawback that it is not possible for him to communicate that proof to others. If that weren’t the way of things then God and the afterlife (yes or no) would be common knowledge, and no one would have to try to explain their gnosis. There’s no real foul here, cut the guy a break. > -Welcome to the boards lekatt 🙂 \*\* I guess I always took that to mean witnessing in the context of religious debate. My beef was that it seemed like **lekatt** wasn’t open to debate - just open to baiting. I stand corrected and withdraw my objection. I am guilty of trying to censor your comments, **lekatt** , and that’s hypocritical of me and just plain wrong. My apologies. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/51 "2002-08-18T05:06:33Z")
vertigo, I’m not sure you owe an apology. I read your post and saw quite clearly that you were asking lekatt to move this into honest debate territory. As for the witnessing being allowed here, sure it is, but I don’t recall seeing any board rules that said it had to remain unchallenged. Oh, and welcome back to the boards, lekatt. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![TV\_time](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f17d59/32.png) [@TV\_time](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TV_time)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/52 "2002-08-18T05:40:59Z")
Leroy, all you wanted to do was create a sock puppet to promote your mildly literate web page. Right? Jeez, as they ask in limbo, “How low can you go?” Rather than presenting your point of view in an intelligent and rational fashion, you have the gall to say in your OP, “Due to near death experience, life after death has been proven.” Then you provide the unattributed link to what seems to be your own page which gives information of questionable validity. Leroy, if you are going to hustle snake oil, whether you believe it or not, be up front about it rather than hiding behind links that you try to pass off as objective information. ---
**Author:** ![coosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@coosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/coosa)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/53 "2002-08-18T09:26:26Z")
[Using Ketamine to Induce the Near-Death Experience: Mechanism of Action and Therapeutic Potential](http://leda.lycaeum.org/Documents/Using_Ketamine_to_Induce_the_Near-Death_Experience.9260.shtml) [Does Ketamine Produce NDEs?](http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/_ketamine.html) [The Ketamine Model of the Near Death Experience: A Central Role for the NMDA Receptor](http://www.mindspring.com/~scottr/nde/jansen1.html) [Ketamine: Dreams & Realities](http://www.near-death.com/jansen.html) [Ketamine and Quantum Psychiatry](http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/ketamine/ketamine_journal5.shtml) [Dr. Robert Jordan’s research](http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts6.html) **lekatt** , if you read the above links you will find that it has been known for many years that NDEs can be reproduced by using the appropriate doses of ketamine. Most interesting is the passage quoted from _Ketamine: Dreams & Realities_, in which a man who experienced a ‘genuine’ NDE later tried ketamine, which duplicated his previous experience. So-called “NDEs” can be produced by the administration of chemicals that mimic chemicals produced naturally by our brains, and without the occurence of ‘clinical death’. It seems likely that the event is triggered by sensory deprivation (the brain is no longer receiving input from the body), as ketamine is a ‘dissociative’ drug that blocks sensory input from the body to the brain. This indicates, to me, that there is nothing supernatural about NDEs - they are hallucinatory side effects of a protective chemical response of the brain to what it perceives as approaching death, and have no bearing whatsoever on the existence or nonexistance of any gods, aliens, souls, spirits, or eternal afterlife. BTW, while searching I came across an article that mentions a project that some hospitals are allegedly participating in to test the validity of NDEs and other ‘out of body’ experiences reported by patients undergoing surgery. Since many people are convinced by the detailed descriptions of events/equipment given by patients who have these experiences, special ‘message boards’ are placed in the operating rooms so that they are not visible to the patients under normal circumstances, but would be easily visible if a patient’s ‘soul’ was hovering above his/her body or floating around the room near the ceiling and watching the proceedings. The messages are changed frequently to prevent fraud, and so far no NDE/OOB claimants have included the message boards in their experiences. However, the article was a simple abstract of a student thesis and provided no references, so I wasn’t able to verify even the existence of this project, much less any results. Does anyone here know anything about it? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/54 "2002-08-18T17:01:28Z")
One more link, in addition to the ones **coosa** provided above: [_The Skeptic’s Dictionary_ entry for “Near-Death Experiences”](http://www.skepdic.com/nde.html). Oh, and **lekatt**? I noticed the following little apocryphal anecdote in the NDE article you linked to in the OP: > [@](#): > > Alexander Graham Bell, inventor of the telephone, was urged by his family to seek psychiatric evaluation. His insistence the human voice could be sent great distances through a wire caused them concern over his mental health. As cute as this anecdote is, it sounds like someone with an axe to grind just made it up. The article certainly provides no cite for this alleged “fact”. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/55 "2002-08-18T19:03:43Z")
Want to thank Vertigo for the kind words. Yes, I really didn’t think it mattered who wrote the page. NDEers get in trouble a lot because they don’t recognize a pecking order. One person is just as worthy as another in their opinion. It is hard to hold a job because of this. I don’t think much can be accomplished here as long as the minds are set. It is not possible to proof the value of a personal experience to a non-experiencer. I do find it incredible that the arguments presented here are very ancient and most shot down long ago. If one is really interested in finding truth they will study the experiences and all the interesting side effects. I would not want to treat others like I have been treated here. Goodbye. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Some\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Guy)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/56 "2002-08-18T19:22:42Z")
See ya. ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/57 "2002-08-18T22:11:42Z")
I love the smell of burning martyr in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2002, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/58 "2002-08-18T22:15:17Z")
Most of the counter-arguments were shot down long ago? I’d love to see where. Other than NDE pages, of course. Stay and lurk some in this Board, **lekatt**. You may learn the way to defend a controversial position with something better than “oh, all your minds are set”. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/59 "2002-08-19T00:13:18Z")
Yeah,\*\* lekatt\*\*, life’s a bitch and then you die. Or do you? ---
**Author:** ![Edlyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8797f3/32.png) [@Edlyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edlyn)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2002, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256/60 "2002-08-19T02:33:53Z")
**lekatt** I’m sorry some of the posters have been terribly rude to you. There are open minds here, but the closed minds are a pretty vocal group. I have read a few books concerning NDE and there are doctors who have changed their opinion because of their patients experiences which profoundly changed them, in addition to recalling events which they could not have observed. I believe them and I believe you; the rapture on my little grandson’s face said it all. God bless. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/life-continues-beyond-physical-death-is-this-proof-of-gods-existance/124256.md?page=4)