# Lifting travel ban to Cuba. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 17, 2003, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193 "2003-09-17T18:43:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/21 "2003-09-19T11:59:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*And don’t forget the excellent but very cheap coffee. To annoy the _Yanqui_ corporations even more, Imports from Cuba could essentially come on what amounts to a shuttle, given how close it is to the continental US. \*\* You know, since we’re supposed to be fighting ignorance here, Cuba is not now nor has it ever been a great producer of coffee, nor a producer of great coffee in any amount worth noticing. ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/22 "2003-09-19T12:40:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Strive \* > \*\*a good reason that a famine has never occurred in a democracy. \*\* [Maybe you forgot this?](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1841.htm) Or the Bengal famine in 1943? Or Ethiopia 1984-85? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/23 "2003-09-19T13:25:16Z")
Actually, that’s Amartya Sen’s (I believe) theory. He theorized, and makes a real good case, that famines are the result of deliberate political decisions to allow famines, and not crop failures. Amd **Aro** , actually your cases support the theory. Ireland was a net food exporter during the 1840s. As that site says: > [@](#): > > While the blight provided the catalyst for the famine, the calamity was essentially man-made, a poison of blind politicsl, scientific ignorance, rural suppression, and enforced poverty. In Bengal, it was the disruption of the war, combined with hording of rice by speculators, and the government’s decision to feed Calcutta at the expense of the Bengal countryside. In Ethiopia in 1984 and 1985, the government made the choice to withhold food supplies to rebel areas, and also tried to force collectivisation on the peasants. ---
**Author:** ![spanna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a6a055/32.png) [@spanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spanna)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/24 "2003-09-19T14:45:33Z")
and what has that got to do with democracy ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2003, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/25 "2003-09-19T22:48:26Z")
Castro’s Cuba has some things going for it; life expectancy, infant mortality, and infectious disease rates there are more in line with the “first world” than the rest of the third world. It also has a high literacy rate, and high levels of education. As far as I know, it is relatively safe from the awful crime we see in Mexico or Colombia. I think many ordinary Cubans, those who are neither party members nor active dissidents, fear that the end of Communism may bring political freedom - but will erode all of those gains and really a truly miserable third world nation I think there needs to be a solid proposal, back by the U.S., Canada. the EU, and maybe some leading Latin American countries, to provide an international transition plan. Certainly Castro would oppose it and refuse to admit failure, but he won’t last all that much longer. We need something that will say to the Cubans, we will help maintain those high social standards, and ease in market economics, and provide for fair elections with a multiparty system. This is important Castro also scares the Cuban public with the idea that Miami has a whole “mafia” of former Batista supporters, gangsters, and opportunists who would return Cuba to 1955 in a heartbeat if they could. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/26 "2003-09-20T04:33:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by spanna \* > \*\*and what has that got to do with democracy \*\* Well, at least in theory, a democratic government is responsive to the desires of its people…it’s much harder for a democratic government, that has to get reelected to say “Let them eat cake” ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/27 "2003-09-20T04:39:05Z")
Doesn’t Congress realize that if we just keep the embargo for one more year, we’ll win the cold war? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![LemonThrower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LemonThrower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LemonThrower)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/28 "2003-09-22T21:32:30Z")
Cubans also do not suffer from obesity. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/29 "2003-09-22T22:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Strive \* > \*\*The Cuban embargo, an attempt to unseat an illegitimate Communist dictatorship, hasn’t been successful because the United States has had so little help from the other nations of the world in its attempt to isolate Fidel’s Cuba. If other nations had shown a modicum of conscience and backbone and helped to make Cuba a pariah state, the brutally repressive government could have been brought down already. Amazingly the USA is opening up to Cuba when the EU is tightning the screws on him due to the recent executions and political repression. So now is the time for the US to open up? Is that hypocrisy or what? First of all, Cuba was propped up by the Soviet Union for decades so I do not know how you would expect the Soviets to show a modicum of conscience and backbone and help to make Cuba a pariah state. You might as well have expected them to ask the USA to invade them. Secondly, I do not see why it is OK for the USA to trade with some communist countries and not others and why the rest of the world should be expected to follow the lead blindly. The rest of the world have their own policies and interests and ideas. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/30 "2003-09-23T13:40:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LemonThrower \* > \*\*Cubans also do not suffer from obesity. \*\* Oh I wouldn’t bet on that[Oh, I wouldn’t bet on that.](http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030920/168/5byjo.html) True, the people in that photograph are either policemen, or ones with relatives abroad, so by Cuban standards they are filthy rich. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/31 "2003-09-23T13:51:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LemonThrower \* > Cubans also do not suffer from obesity. Obesity is not a problem in Cuba. Getting food is. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/32 "2003-09-23T14:04:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LemonThrower \* > \*\*Cubans also do not suffer from obesity. \*\* Starvation will generally have that effect. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/33 "2003-09-23T14:48:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > \*\*True, the people in that photograph are either policemen, or ones with relatives abroad, so by Cuban standards they are filthy rich. \*\* And not suprisingly, some of the members of the Politburo are kind of hefty. Have you seen a picture of Alfredo Jordan? Although, it’s a good sign when the Minister of Agriculture is overweight…it shows a man who likes his work. ---
**Author:** ![LemonThrower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/d2c977/32.png) [@LemonThrower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LemonThrower)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/34 "2003-09-23T14:57:55Z")
For the sake of clarity, I was being sarcastic with my reference to obesity. I was lampooning the idea that Cuba is superior to the US because of education, health care, etc. All of that is irrelevant if you have to scrounge for food. Castro is an abomination. I see the merits of opening Cuba and isolating it. I don’t see why our policy towards Cuba is different than our policy towards Red China. We should coordinate our efforts with Canada, SAmerica, and Europe. Europe and the UN have done little to foster freedom in Cuba or elsewhere. The person who mentioned US Sugar interests hit on an important lobby that is preventing liberalization. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/35 "2003-09-23T15:06:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LemonThrower \*\*\*Europe and the UN have done little to foster freedom in Cuba or elsewhere. > \*\* I think it’s funny that whenever Europe doesn’t meddle into the affairs of other countries it is perceived as hindering freedom and democracy. 1. What exactly did the US do for the democracy in Pakistan, China, Saudi-Arabia, Egypt etc. ? 2. How did the embargo of Cuba foster freedom and democracy? Different countries have different reasons for their politics, but whenever a country doesn’t follow the US (whose rules for international cooperation do not make sense to me), it is either harming democracy or even supporting terrorists ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2003, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/36 "2003-09-23T22:50:52Z")
I think it’s funny that whenever the USA doesn’t act as Europe’s butt-monkey, Europeans start pretending to actually have spotless hands. ---
**Author:** ![flonks](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3ab097/32.png) [@flonks](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flonks)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/37 "2003-09-24T12:12:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*I think it’s funny that whenever the USA doesn’t act as Europe’s butt-monkey, Europeans start pretending to actually have spotless hands. \*\* Don’t get offended, there is no reason. I didn’t say that Europeans have spotless hands. But it’s hypocritical to say that Europe did not foster enough democracy, given that the US doesn’t steer it’s foreign politics according to this goal either. The difference with Europe is, we never pretended. I will not repeat the points I stated, just read them this time and you will understand my posting. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/38 "2003-09-24T12:22:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aro \* > \*\*[Maybe you forgot this?](http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/ire1841.htm) > Or the Bengal famine in 1943? > Or Ethiopia 1984-85? \*\* Bangladesh and Ethiopia democracies? Since when? Certainly not in those years. Ethiopia was a marxist dictatorship led by a military coup. ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/39 "2003-09-24T12:24:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flonks \* > \*\*Don’t get offended, there is no reason. > > I didn’t say that Europeans have spotless hands. But it’s hypocritical to say that Europe did not foster enough democracy, given that the US doesn’t steer it’s foreign politics according to this goal either. The difference with Europe is, we never pretended. \*\* And Europe has NEEEEEEEEEVVEEEEERR EEEEEEEEVVVVVVVEEEEEERRR EEEEEEEEEEEVVVVVEEERRRR exercised hypocrisy. Oh, NO! Rise above your prejudice. ---
**Author:** ![manwithaplan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@manwithaplan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manwithaplan)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2003, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193/40 "2003-09-24T13:00:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by An Lú abú \* > \*\*I for one hope they do. I have wanted to vacation in Cuba for some time, and while as a non-US passport holder I am not restricted per se, I do travel to the US frequently for business and pleasure and I have heard, anecdotally, that US immigration (they are actually stationed over here in our case) look askance at Cuban visa stamps. > > Given my previous hassles with them, travelling on valid visas, I’m unwilling to take the chance until that stupid law is rescinded. \*\* My friend from the Wee County, I wouldn’t worry about travelling to Cuba on that score. The Cubans are acutely aware of their dependence on tourism and will either stamp a sheet which they insert into your passport or won’t stamp it at all. I’ve been there and have been to the USA since - there’s no problem. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lifting-travel-ban-to-cuba/202193.md?page=3)