# Lighthouses and Giant Squids: A Debate about Libertarianism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2002, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251 "2002-12-21T19:03:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/41 "2002-12-22T11:29:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*As I said, feel free to talk about a nice, theoretical world. But don’t assume it has any relationship to the real one. > > And don’t get so snotty when someone points out that you have yet to prove that your assertion is realistic. And without your proof that this is so, you are just talking about make-believe. \*\* When **you** talk about Libertaria, are **you** talking about a real world? If then you express your opinions and views on things imaginary, why may not I? I assert that allowing peaceful honest people to pursue their own happiness in their own way is a good and reasonable ethic. I know of no theory of ethics that is proved, and frankly I think that it is rather snotty to ask someone to prove an ethic. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/42 "2002-12-22T11:34:15Z")
Jonathan wrote: > [@](#): > > Well, ‘Libertopia’ has been used often enough in this forum (and others) that I feel I have the right to use the word as the name of our eventual land. You certainly have a right to do whatever the owners of the board will allow. (The rights actually are theirs, and are accrued to their ownership. ;)) But the term for three years has been Libertaria. Dewey introduced the term Libertopia a couple of weeks ago, apparently as a means of disparaging it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/43 "2002-12-22T11:41:30Z")
Ulterior wrote: > [@](#): > > A huge caveat: None of this means that Libertarian is wrong. It just means that his principle can’t be applied to the degree that he would like. To the extent that it is sensible, I don’t think that government should interfere with people’s private lives. However, I am not willing to be any more forceful than that in the application of principle, because the project of government must, simply because of the ambiguity of words and values, be flexible. You and I are not far apart. In fact, I endorse the idea that government cannot be perfectly inflexible. I’ve defined in another post what I mean by peaceful and honest, but you raised a different issue about who will keep the government in check. You answered your own series of rhetorical questions by saying that “society” will do the job. And that might be where we diverge if, by society, you mean an anthropomorphized synthetic entity. A libertarian government governs only by consent. Therefore, even a single individual may take his own life, property, and rights into his own hands by refusing to give consent to be governed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/44 "2002-12-22T11:50:33Z")
Dewey wrote: > [@](#): > > 1. Ownership of deep-water ports: how is it established? Can I own New York harbor? How about the Atlantic Ocean? I specified in quite some detail in the thread that you cited how ownership is established. > [@](#): > > 1. Is the committment of a mentally incompetent person who, left to his own devices, would be a danger to himself an initiation of force against that person? Only if he has initiated no force or fraud of his own. I refer you there. > [@](#): > > 1. How is consent to government established in Libertopia? Is it only by express consent, or can it be implied by conduct? If it can be implied, what degree of conduct is required to create the implication? Express consent. > [@](#): > > 1. Can a Libertopian state deny its services to someone unable to pay its fees? If so, doesn’t this create a situation where (for example) criminals can prey on the poor with impunity because they cannot afford police protection? Yes, and possibly, whenever they are both poor and defenseless. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/45 "2002-12-22T11:51:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by KidCharlemagne \* > \*\*I think an actual assertion about Libertarianism needs to be made before any constructive debate can take place. Something along the lines of, “There is nothing the public sector can do that the private sector can’t do better” or anything actually related to libertarianism and not fallacious rhetoric. \*\* The assertion is that it is a good ethic. Where is the fallacy? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/46 "2002-12-22T11:58:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*But wait… > > Let’s assume that suddenly _poof_ we become Libertarian tomorrow at 6:00 AM Mountain Time. > > There’s all this water in the oceans that _no-one owns_. > > How does it get parceled out? Who decides? For me to purchase it, I have to purchase it from _someone_. Who? > > Fenris \*\* People have understood for thousands of years how this works. See the thread that Dewey linked. In the post that was my final appeal to him for decency, I explained the establishment of ownership and its three levels: claim, possession, and title. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/47 "2002-12-22T12:01:23Z")
Gadarene wrote: > [@](#): > > Maybe you can’t purchase the ocean just like you can’t purchase the air we breathe. Or…maybe you can purchase the air we breathe. Being an unreconstructed statist who believes in the idea of the commons, I’ll defer to Lib on the question. The ocean is nothing but [land with water on it](http://ocean-ridge.ldeo.columbia.edu/). Perhaps there are many people who desire to live underwater, to provide underwater (or above water) recreation, to mine resources, or simply to own the land. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/48 "2002-12-22T12:04:42Z")
Xeno wrote: > [@](#): > > But unless the definition of “coercion” includes all forms, including the obscenely effective blackmail of economic coercion, then protecting peaceful honest (or otherwise) people from coercion is a sham. What exactly is economic coercion? Is an offer-you-can’t-refuse sort of thing, like, “I’ll pay you a million dollars for your wristwatch.”? Is it any general, noncurrency transaction like, “I’ll feed you if you’ll be my servant.”? Can you give an example? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/49 "2002-12-22T12:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Libertarian \* > But I do not advocate anarchy. I advocate a government as big and strong as it needs to be to supress coercion from people who are NOT peaceful and honest. That is the natural advocacy that derives from the assertion I made in the OP. Perhaps you were just being tongue-in-cheek–the thread’s in MPSIMS, at least at the moment–but in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?postid=2754384#post2754384) you said you scored a 160 on [this test](http://www.bcaplan.com/cgi/purity.cgi). Do you really agree with such statements as “all legislation [should] be replaced by judge-made law, arbitration, and other private rule-suppliers”, “government [is] an unnecessary evil”, “police”, “courts”, and “the law itself” should be “privatized”, and the “state” should be “abolished”? I’m not just trying to play “gotcha” here; I often honesty don’t know what is meant by “Libertarianism”. Sometimes it seems to mean “greatly reduce taxes and government regulation, eliminate victimless crimes, and pursue a policy of non-interference in foreign affairs”–sort of a return to an 18th or 19th century classical liberal view of government; other times it seems to be identical with anarchism. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/50 "2002-12-22T12:09:22Z")
Leaper wrote: > [@](#): > > I’d like you to explain what you meant by this. Given the heavy investment many people have in the “statist” system we have right now, is it possible, especially when it would be preserved if only in their memories? Are you advocating some sort of revolution? Is it any easier to “start from scratch” in that case than it is to convert an already standing system? Or were you advocating libertarian-minded people to start their own country elsewhere? Definitely not revolution. “Every revolution evaporates, and leaves behind the slime of a new bureaucracy.” — Franz Kafka Libertaria as I envision it cannot come out of the same old conquer-and-steal methodology that has been used for millenia to establish nation-states. It must come from a land-owner who is self-sovereign or else can defend himself from usurpatious tyrants who presume sovereignty over him. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/51 "2002-12-22T12:12:52Z")
Buck wrote: > [@](#): > > Do you really agree with such statements as “all legislation [should] be replaced by judge-made law, arbitration, and other private rule-suppliers”, “government [is] an unnecessary evil”, “police”, “courts”, and “the law itself” should be “privatized”, and the “state” should be “abolished”? It is music to my ears, and would be a dream come true! 🙂 But the difference between libertarianism and anarchy is deontic. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/52 "2002-12-22T12:18:11Z")
> [@](#): > > [deontic:](http://www.bartleby.com/61/89/D0138950.html) Of, relating to, or concerning duties or obligations. Eh? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/53 "2002-12-22T12:20:08Z")
Owl wrote: > [@](#): > > who DOES own the lighthouses? Based on this silly remark by you: > [@](#): > > well since you seem to love not answering this question, I’ll ask again. I have to ask, what do you want, a list of _names_? The person who owns the lighthouse is the person who built it or bought it. Will “Mr. Smith” do? > [@](#): > > who owns the parks? Op. Cit. > [@](#): > > who owns the sewage treatment plants? Op. Cit. > [@](#): > > who owns any of the unpofitable public goods? Op. Cit. > [@](#): > > your only answer so far is that they would exist because some nice old man would build them. is that something you really stand on? a “charity of rich old men” based government? Ah, so at last you ask your real question — not who owns them, but how do they come about. And even that question is loaded with fluff. The “rich old men” are not a part of the government. Name me a nonprofitable “public good” that concerns you, and I’ll hypothesize how it might come to be established. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/54 "2002-12-22T12:21:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > \*\*Eh? \*\* Well, people who believe that they are capable of defending their own rights ought to be allowed to do so. But people like me ought to be allowed to give my consent to a government to defend my rights. For that, I am obligated to pay and it is obligated to defend. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/55 "2002-12-22T12:25:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*Well, the lighthouses would be owned by whoever could figure out a way to make money off them. Same with sewage treatment plants. There have been plenty of parks donated to the public by wealthy philanthropist, or if the people of a community wanted a park, they could pool their money and buy it and voluntarily pooled their money to maintain it. And people who don’t pay to maintain it don’t get to use it. \*\* […looking admiringly in the direction of Neurotik…] They can “use” a lighthouse in the same sense that they could use someone’s porch light. But a lighthouse still could be profitable if it is strategically located, offers tours, is a feature of a theme park, or any of other uncountable ways. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/56 "2002-12-22T12:31:29Z")
**Lib** , dude, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151923) you wisely and properly counselled another Doper to avoid a potentially disastrous situation. The other Doper took your advice. I don’t want you to take my advice, but maybe you should take you own? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/57 "2002-12-22T12:32:17Z")
Chumsky wrote: > [@](#): > > The problem is that capitalism does NOT do this. Capitalism is a highly authoritarian system that depends on a very coercive state security apparatus. It is anything but libertarian. Although libertarianism is incompatible with socialism when it is defined as government ownership of goods and services, it is **not** incompatible with communism when it is defined as a communal economy. So long as all are volunteers in the political system, the economic system is arbitrary with respect to whether the system operates on libertarian principle. > [@](#): > > I would be very curious to hear what your opinion of anarchism is. Its flaw is that it _denies_ a man his right to consent to be governed. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/58 "2002-12-22T12:33:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > \*\ ***Lib** , dude, in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=151923) you wisely and properly counselled another Doper to avoid a potentially disastrous situation. The other Doper took your advice. > > I don’t want you to take my advice, but maybe you should take you own? \*\* I have no idea what you’re talking about. I’m not offering any awards here. Do you have a matter of debate regarding libertarianism? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/59 "2002-12-22T12:34:25Z")
Caught up! Woo-hoo! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [December 22, 2002, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251/60 "2002-12-22T12:43:32Z")
Erratum: In my post to Dewey, I wrote: > [@](#): > > Only if he has initiated no force or fraud of his own. I refer you there. The “I refer you there.” should have been with this: > [@](#): > > I specified in quite some detail in the thread that you cited how ownership is established. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lighthouses-and-giant-squids-a-debate-about-libertarianism/144251.md?page=4)