And that fits quite well in my “Leave us alone” policy. The laws right now deny us the same rights and privileges - property, inheritance, marriage, health plans. The laws are singling out and setting us apart as less than equal. That violates the “leave us alone” rule. It is interfering in my business. I do not interfere with other people and I demand the same from them.
I’ve said plenty about the bible in other places. I don’t need someone else to tell me what it says, or what it means. I don’t need someone else’s interpretation pushed on me either. Not any more than I would need the Koran or the Norse sagas, or any other texts pushed at me. It’s simple. anyone can read whatever “holy book” ythey want, but stay out of my business. SOME people have a problem with that.
I got what you meant; your rephrasing the contradiction in your view makes the contradiction even more plain. You say that some things are “objectively bad;” that’s fine and good, and for what it’s worth I agree. But I’m aware that that is a moral position, and that other people’s list of what is “objectively bad” is different from mine.
I just find your reasoning (and it’s a quite common one) to be along the lines of “Some people don’t love their fellow man, and I hate those people.”
That’s nice. That’s very nice. However, as always, the ones who get to decide what is intrinsically and objectively bad for all of us, are the same ones they’ve always been - and it’s the “holier than thou’s”, the “bible thumpers of the RR”, and the wannabe theocrats.
Polycarp already brought up all the laws that discriminate against gays. They exist. But, according to the “fine people” I just mentioned, that is still not enough. It will never be enough. Besides, what is so wrong about reacting to hate with anger or even hate? Tolerance and understanding don’t work. Educating them doesn’t work. Anything less than pure unbridled fury is seen as weakness. We keep being told to play nice and be patient. Who tells that to them? No one. Ridicule, abuse, full disclosure of their own vices and indiscretions, and more ridicule and abuse may work where patience and tact don’t. There is no contradiction in deciding to no longer buy into a “victim mentality” that was sold to you by them.
Bigot: “In my opinion black people are inferior to white people.”
Doper A: “You’re a racist.”
Doper B: “Come on, Doper A, don’t be so intolerant of intolerance!”
Other Dopers: “Doper B, you’re an idiot.”
Bigot: “In my opinion gay people are morally inferior to straight people.”
Doper A: “You’re a homophobe.”
Doper B: “Come on, Doper A, don’t be so intolerant of intolerance!”
Other Dopers: [ . . . crickets chirp . . .]
In the first situation, hardly anyone here would agree that there is a valid debate here. In the second, there are still plenty of Dopers who would urge respectful engagement.
The problem is that not everyone who is anti-gay has had their ignorance deeply entrenched. There are always young people who are believing that just because they don’t know any better, but they can change their minds. And it’s not just young people.
In my opinion, a crucial step in getting people to accept homosexuality is to get them to empathize with gay people. Make them realize that gay people aren’t so different from everyone else and instead of being “them” are part of “us”. Hostility will create a bigger divide and make them less sympathetic.
I also just think it’s the right thing to do to not hate them, but I guess I shouldn’t tell you what to do or expect that to be a good reason if you don’t share my moral views.
I wasn’t aware that any anyone had decided anything at all for me, but YMMV.
I have no problem saying that Pat Robertson and Louis Farrakhan, for instance, are a pair of shitsacks. I do not have a problem with someone who says they’re not, nor even with someone who has a reasoned argument about why one is a shitsack and the other isn’t. I think they’re wrong, but we can discuss it.
What I do have problem with is with those (and I’m not referring to anyone here) who would agree with me about one, but come with the hippy-dippy “we have to understand and tolerate all points of view, because after all who are we to say what’s right and wrong” crap when it comes to the other, as if “tolerance” were suddenly the ne plus ultra of morality.
It’s lazy and/or dishonest thinking, but its appealing to us because it allows us to judge other people while denying anyone the ability to judge us.
If you are saying that some people can not be discussed with, then I agree. I am saying the aforementioned shitsacks do not rate, or deserve any pretense at civilized discussion. It doesn’t matter, they would refuse anyway. Further, if you are saying that the shitsacks in choosing the path of intolerance have given up their right to receive tolerance, then I agree again.
If they are free to judge, then so are those who have judged them to be shitsacks. Tit for tat. This looks like a “I can condemn, damn, doom, slur, and villify you but you can’t do that to me” thing. It dovetails nicely with the RR’s “persecuted christian” fallacy.
Perhaps. But in my opinion, an ever more crucial step is iin getting people to accept that they don’t get to have a problem with it.
Is your strategy for dealing with young racists to take them by the hand and lead them into empathizing with their brothers and sisters under the skin? Or is it whacking them upside the head and telling them to grow up?
Don’t get me wrong; I agree that your approach is part of the necessary overall response to ignorance. But so is mine. A bigot–young or old–needs to understand that their “opinion” is simply not acceptable in modern society. I don’t have a problem with approaching that problem from two angles: education, and marginalization. You be the carrot, I’m the stick. As I said, I’ve spent many years on the carrot end of the stick, and now I’m leaving that approach to others.
I feel it is my duty to make homophobes understand that their “opinions” are not worthy of respect or engagement. I want homophobes who’ve grown up in ignorance and complacency, who think that they hold perfectly valid opinions–who think that voicing those opinions will result in no direr consequences than a loving lecture from an herbal tea liberal–to understand, startling as it may be, that it’s not UP to them to define me, or how I fit into their world. It’s up to me.
I want to make them uncomfortable. Perhaps, for some of them, that will be the first step in a process of re-examining what they’ve always taken for granted; a cold slap to their complacency. Plenty of them will die unshakable, but I hope they will do so in a society whose paradigm has shifted to marginalizing the homophobe, rather than the homosexual.
No, that wasn’t what I was getting at. What I was getting at was that there are many, many people that will respond to someone else’s moral judgement (be it “Farrakhan is a shitsack,” “Abortion is Murder,” or what have you) NOT by presenting an alternative moral phiosophy, but instead by essentially saying that believing in moral absolutes is foolish, ignorant and/or itself a morally wrong thing to do. (As an example, I’ve seen it said on these boards that it is inherently intolerant to believe that one’s religion is exclusively true and that others are incorrect.)
And yet those same people will turn around, and condemn, say, a Pat Robertson in morally absolute terms. *That * is what peeves me.
Lissener, you have a good point. And I definitely agree that we don’t have to be totally gentle with them. In fact, now that I think of it, I’m a former anti-gay person and I recall that it did take some smacks upside the head in addition to being nice to get me to change my mind.
But I think that everybody should at least be given a chance. They shouldn’t be hated and written off as worthless at least until they’ve been given enough chances to prove that they refuse to even consider another point of view. And even after you turn your back on them they shouldn’t be completely cut off.
Theoretically, I think even someone like Fred Phelps shouldn’t be considered a worthless inferior creature, but that’s impossible to expect anyone to do, including me. It’s not easy and I certainly can’t tell people to actually act on what I’m saying since I’m not morally superior and I don’t have to deal with as much shit since I’m not gay. I just think we should all do our best to not give in to hatred. Nothing good comes from that.
We don’t need to act like saints, we should just try to maintain a general attitude of good will.
I can see your point; what I’m striving to explain, however, is that some things are not dependent on anyone’s opinions to be bad; they just are bad. I have tentatively formulated what makes something empirically bad - hurting other people or animals for no reason.
I should probably add this: Lissener, I do disagre with this: “an ever more crucial step is iin getting people to accept that they don’t get to have a problem with it.”
They get to have a problem with whatever they want. They should accept that having a problem with it is wrong.
And homophobe, I hope you aren’t expecting me to ask people to be nice to you. Your choice of such an inflammatory username makes me doubt your willingness to actually discuss things in good faith.
Do you really think that I’m talking about constitutional rights here? Just like my mom doesn’t get to have a problem with the way I cut my hair, an ignorant stranger doesn’t get to have a problem with who I love.
homophobe, I live in a town rife with Joe Sixpacks. Some of them are great people. Others of them also believe that there’s something inherently wrong with people who belong to other races and/or interracial marriage. Years ago when I was living in Hawaii, a coworker told me to her face she considered associating with other races to be just plain wrong and she hoped her daughter didn’t pick up the notion that it was all right. (In Hawaii, by the way, most people are mixed race.) I told her as gently as possible that I strongly disagreed with her and suggested she never bring the subject up again. Just because some people are uncomfortable with something and will never be comfortable with it doesn’t make it wrong. Times change. There are people in this country who are still uncomfortable with an independent woman who speaks her mind and supports herself. Should I remain silent and live with my parents because of their prejudices? No. Neither do I expect my esteemed brother Doper, SteveG1 to remain silent about who he is to support the prejudices of others.
How many chances? The worst of the bunch such as Falwell, Roberson and Phelps (godhatesfags.com) have been at it for years, and so have their followers. How many chances do they get?
No way, no how, not now, not ever. Phelps is a great example of someone with NO worth whatsoever. He is a freak and an aberration of nature. There is no reason to have anything but disgust for the likes of him.
Likewise for bashers - Why have happy thoughts for them? Is there some good hiddend deeply with those who would be you to death for being/acting/looking like you might be gay? Again, no.
Happy thoughts, being reasonable, and being nice have not worked. What works?
Ridicule. Abuse. Cutting off the money. Expsoing them for the corrupt, abusive or perverted creeps that they are, whenever possible. Outing, for the more extreme enemies (I usually oppose outing but some slimeballs do deserve it). Meeting their hate with righteous anger. Nice didn’t cut it. Neither does any argument that says we must show tolerance and understanding for those who repeatedly reject it.
Funny you should bring up Pat Robertson. Robertson is a liar, a fraud, a bigot, a false prophet and a spineless coward. He spews hateful vile excrement, and if it gets a litle hot for him, he backpedals like a motherfucking coward. He (with Falwell) has blamed 9/11 on gays and liberals. He blamed (with Falwell?) the big Pacific tsunami on gays and heathens. He called down fire and brimstone on Dover PA for daring to reject “intelligent” design in their schools. How can anyone dare defend him?
He is one of the worst, but belive it or not, he is not the only one, and there are some who are even worse - calling for castration and extermination.
Pat Robertson, founder of the Christian Coalition, recently warned Orlando, Florida, that it was courting natural disaster by allowing gay pride flags to be flown along its streets. “A condition like this will bring about … earthquakes, tornadoes, and possibly a meteor,” he said, apparently referring to his belief that the presence of openly gay people incurs divine wrath and that God acts through geological and meteorological events to destroy municipalities that permit gay people the same civil liberties as others. (Robertson also warned Orlando about terrorist bombs, suggesting the possibility that God may also employ terrorists.)
I believe that he also blames Hurricane Katrina on gays.
Pat Robertson says Gays were behind Hitler - When lawlessness is abroad in the land, the same thing will happen here that happened in Nazi Germany. Many of those people involved in Adolph Hitler were Satanists. Many of them were homosexuals. The two things seem to go together. - 700 Club, 1-21-93 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
Pat Robertson says Gays are appalling - …What kind of craziness is it in our society which will put a cloak of secrecy around a group of people whose lifestyle is at best abominable. Homosexuality is an abomination. The practices of those people is appalling. It is a pathology. It is a sickness, and instead of thinking of giving these people a preferred status and privacy, we should treat AIDS exactly the same way as any other communicable disease… - 700 Club, 6-6-88 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
Pat Robertson says Gays want to disprupt churches, spread AIDS and spit at ministers - “[Homosexuals]want to come into churches and disrupt church services and throw blood all around and try to give people AIDS and spit in the face of ministers.” Pat Robertson, 700 Club, 1/18/95 - People for the American Way Web site
Pat Robertson says Entire world will suffer if homosexuality is accepted - If the world accepts homosexuality as its norm and if it moves the entire world in that regard, the whole world is then going to be sitting like Sodom and Gomorrah before a Holy God. And when the wrath of God comes on this earth, we will all be guilty and we will all suffer for it. - 700 Club, 9-6-95 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
Pat Robertson says about Discrimination against gays… Since our nation was founded, we have discriminated against certain things. We discriminate against kidnappers. We discriminate against murderers. We discriminate against thieves…There are laws that prohibit that kind of conduct. And there have been laws since the founding of our country against what are considered unnatural sex acts, sex between members of the same sex. - 700 Club, 12-24-93 (source: People for the American Way Foundation)
Pat Robertson says “[Gays seek] to destroy all Christians.” - People for the American Way, “Hostile Climate,” 1994, p.9.
Jerry Falwell says “god hates homosexuality” - Jerry Falwell on TV
Jerry Falwell says Gays will crush all Americans - “Someone must not be afraid to say, ‘moral perversion is wrong.’ If we do not act now, homosexuals will ‘own’ America!..If you and I do not speak up now, this homosexual steamroller will leterally crush all decent men, women, and children who get in its way…and our nation will pay a terrible price!” - People for the American Way, “Hostile Climate,” 1997, p.15.
The Family Research Council says Columbine killers might be gay/bisexual - “What Are The Media Hiding?..the media have been slow to give a full profile of the killers -avoiding any mention of their alleged bisexuality as reported by several students…Matt Drudge describes them in his report as ‘gay, jock-hating, confederate flag-wearing, goth rock & Marilyn Manson loving, white supremacist, fingernail polish wearing, Hitler birthday celebrating outcasts’…One student shortly after the attack said they were militant ‘gays’ who were retaliating against jocks. Another student said on NBC’s Today Show that the trench coat kids bragged about being bisexual… No American news outlet has reported that bi-sexuality could have played a part in the tragedy.” - FRC’s “CultureFacts”, April 21, 1999, http://www.frc.org/culture/cu99d3.html
The Family Research Council says Matt Shepard, and gays generally, will not inherit the kingdom of God - “homosexuals are included in a list of sinners, who, if unrepentant, will not inherit the kingdom of God.” - Family Research Council press release about Matt Shepard’s funeral, on the day of the funeral, October 16, 1998, http://www.frc.org/press/101698.html. The release implied that a gay person who had not yet become, or tried to become, an “ex-gay” was “unrepentant.”
The Family Research Council - Matt Shepard compared to a drunk -
" ‘They create a climate and environment of intolerance and give license to those who seek to vent their rage or frustration on an entire community,’ Human Rights Campaign executive director Elizabeth Birch said Wednesday, addressing a Washington rally attended by the likes of actress Ellen DeGeneres and Alan Simpson, a Republican former senator from Wyoming. Ms. Farish vehemently rejects such allegations. ‘Don’t blame AA because a drunk was beat up,’ she said." - Heather Farish of the Family Research Council, quoted in the Dallas Morning News article, “Why now? Other gays have been victims of brutal attacks, but the slaying of a Wyoming student has caused a national outcry,” by Brooks Egerton, October 17, 1998.
The Family Research Council - Gays are hateful towards Christians, have exploited Matt - “using hateful rhetoric against Christians…Homosexual activists have ignored that father’s plea and have exploited Matthew’s death” - Family Research Council press release about Matt Shepard’s funeral, on the day of the funeral, October 16, 1998, http://www.frc.org/press/101698.html
Gays are like a gun to the head of America - The Family Research Council - “That’s what we’re talking about whenever you’re talking about gay rights. You’re talking about giving somebody a gun to put at the head of anybody who disagrees with them, whether it’s the Boy Scouts, whether it’s a local dry-cleaning establishment or a giant corporation like Shell Oil.” - Robert Knight,
Gays need a good “whack” - “Basically, homosexuality is a neurosis. It’s healable, it’s treatable. We are ministering to 6,000 former homosexuals in the Exodus network. Basically, homosexuality is a stunting of psychosexual growth. They are children inside, and any parents out there – you know, when your kid is spoiled, he’ll keep coming at you and keep coming at you and keep coming at you until you give him a whack on the bottom and say, ‘Enough!’ and then the child will stop.” - Anthony Falzarano, http://www.frc.org/net/st96d2.htmlhttp://www.frc.org/net/st96d2.html
The Family Research Council says This is a “war” against destructive"homosexuals - “…wage the war against the homosexual agenda.” - From the Web site of Bauer’s Family Research Council, which calls homosexuality “destructive”, source: Time magazine, Oct 26, 1998.
Gays chose to get AIDS - “In light of recent research on AIDS, it was discovered that the average homosexual who was interviewed had 550 different sexual partners. Those with AIDS, (I refuse to call them AIDS victims, because the vast majority received the disease by deviant sexual behavior and drug usage which they choose), when considered by themselves average 1,100 different sexual partners, and some reported as many as 20,000.” - Paul Volle, Chairman, Christian Coalition of Maine, “The Gay Agenda,” October 1998
Gays rape children - “They commit over 33% of the sex acts with children. Of the pupil molestations, homosexual teachers commit as many as 80% of those acts. Therefore, it would seem to me that we are increasing the risk of our children being molested by allowing homosexuals to teach our children. There are those in our school systems that say the homosexual has every right to influence our children. Why, let them steal the innocence of our children?” - Paul Volle, Chairman, Christian Coalition of Maine, “The Gay Agenda,” October 1998
Discriminating against gays is “OK” - “Practicing homosexuals individually may come up against anti-gay societal sentiment in the form of denied jobs or housing. This is OK.” - “The Gay Agenda”, published by Paul Volle, Chairman, Christian Coalition of Maine, October 1998
Exterminate gays - “At the 1985 Conservative Political Action Conference, Dr. Paul Cameron announced to the attendees, ‘Unless we get medically lucky, in three or four years, one of the options discussed will be the extermination of homosexuals.’ According to an interview with former Surgeon General C. Everett Koop, Cameron was recommending the extermination option as early as 1983.” - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.
Tattoo AIDS patients, castrate gays - “At least twice Cameron has advocated the tattooing of AIDS patients on the face, so that people would know when they were meeting with an infected person. The penalty for trying to hide the tattoo would be banishment to the Hawaiian island of Molokai, a former leper colony. In the event that a vaccine were developed to prevent AIDS, Cameron has proposed that homosexuals be castrated to prevent them from ‘cheating’ on nature.” - Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.
AIDS is a Godsend - “I think that actually AIDS is a guardian. That is I think it was sent, if you would, about forty years ago, to destroy Western civilization unless we change our sexual ways. So it’s really a Godsend.” - Cameron quoted by Mark E. Pietrzyk, News-Telegraph, March 10, 1995.
Hell yes I condemn Pat Robertson. If I had the power I would consign him and his type to the deepest pit of Hell forever. There is no way to reason with these people, and no reason to reason to them.
I could see one possible reason why these peope would be so fixated on gays - they are a bunch of closet queens and they hate themselves. If that were true then they would deserve to be forcibly outed.
Note: I have not seen fit to mention one other paragon of virtue and christian perfection - Horsley the horse fucker.
What. No answers from those who still say we should understand and tolerate? No offers or attempts to defend these walking pustules who parade, like pod people, as humans? No one, when confronted with the actual quotes has the stomach to defend the calls for discrimination, criminalization, castration or extermination? What.