# Like stupid and pompous idiots, who try to define and limit what art is. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 5, 2011, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008 "2011-11-05T23:33:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/581 "2011-11-15T20:46:18Z")
It’s worth noting that Piero Manzoni did [design the labels](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Piero_Manzoni_Artist%27s_shit.jpg) on the cans of his shit. Which takes some technical skill to do, particularly in the days before Photoshop. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/582 "2011-11-15T20:49:24Z")
Art is not a property. It is a function. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/583 "2011-11-15T20:51:53Z")
I’m not comfortable reducing the discussion about “what is art” down to “crafstmanship”. To my mind, a crafter is someone who produces objects of mostly utilitarian value, which may also be beautiful to behold. These objects can be mass produced, are often produced in quantity, or more rarely done as a one-off. A beautiful woven scarf is crafted. A nice wooden chessboard can be crafted. A crafter could make you a kiln-fired serving platter. Art is something more than crafting. It produces feelings in the viewer - these feelings may be pleasant or uncomfortable. It may cause discussion or disagreement. Some art certainly does require good craftsmanship skills as an initial starting point, while other art does not. Craftsmanship skills are not necessarily a prerequisite to producing ALL forms of art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/584 "2011-11-15T20:58:25Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If I enjoy the result, why does it matter how much skill it took to produce it? > > Intellectual appreciation of the craftsmanship behind a piece is certainly ONE way to engage with art, but it’s not the only way. And it runs the risk of reducing art to a technical stunt. Craftsmanship alone is not enough. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/585 "2011-11-15T20:59:02Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If I enjoy the result, why does it matter how much skill it took to produce it? One wall of my boss’s office is lined with crayon pictures that his 5-year-old daughter drew. There’s not a lot of skill, but I really enjoy them. I’d say that they are art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/586 "2011-11-15T20:59:44Z")
> [@fachverwirrt](#): > > To expand on this (excuse my scattershot responses; I’m multitasking), are you saying that my beginning students, who are certainly not experts, are not making music when they sing? When does something rise to the level of “expertness”? When you do something better than the majority of the humanity. At a minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/587 "2011-11-15T21:01:09Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I’m not comfortable reducing the discussion about “what is art” down to “crafstmanship”. Craftsmanship alone is not enough to be “art”. Neither are the aesthetics. It’s a combination of the two. ---
**Author:** ![fachverwirrt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@fachverwirrt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fachverwirrt)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/588 "2011-11-15T21:06:30Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > When you do something better than the majority of the humanity. At a minimum. Better by whose standard? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/589 "2011-11-15T21:51:57Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Craftsmanship alone is not enough. You’re arguing against a point I didn’t make. “Necessary” \<\> “Sufficient”. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/590 "2011-11-15T22:56:16Z")
> [@sh1bu1](#): > > Oh, never mind then. I thought you were pitting me. There is lots of art that I don’t like that is clearly art. I take back all the mean things I said about you. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/591 "2011-11-15T23:22:49Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Craftsmanship alone is not enough to be “art”. Neither are the aesthetics. It’s a combination of the two. I would extend that; I am saying that art does not necessarily need craftsmanship _at all,_ and can still be considered to be art. This is where I suspect you would disagree; You would posit that craftsmanship is a _necessary component_ of all art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/592 "2011-11-15T23:55:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I would extend that; I am saying that art does not necessarily need craftsmanship _at all,_ and can still be considered to be art. This is where I suspect you would disagree; You would posit that craftsmanship is a _necessary component_ of all art. Absolutely. A blue sky full of fluffy white clouds is aesthetically pleasing. But if I am led by an “artist” outside and told to look up, you cannot call that “art”. There was no craftsmanship component. A work of art that required no craftsmanship whatsoever on the part of the artist (like the “readymades” of Duchamp, for example) or the crumpled paper of Creed that takes minimal (or I would say trivial) amount of skill or effort is not “art”. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/593 "2011-11-16T00:56:56Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Craftsmanship alone is not enough to be “art”. Neither are the aesthetics. It’s a combination of the two. So we’re back to the Mona Lisa not being art, because I don’t find it aesthetically pleasing. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/594 "2011-11-16T00:59:09Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Absolutely. > > A blue sky full of fluffy white clouds is aesthetically pleasing. But if I am led by an “artist” outside and told to look up, you cannot call that “art”. There was no craftsmanship component. > > A work of art that required no craftsmanship whatsoever on the part of the artist (like the “readymades” of Duchamp, for example) or the crumpled paper of Creed that takes minimal (or I would say trivial) amount of skill or effort is not “art”. Which is not to say that it can’t be a brilliant commentary on something, just it ain’t art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/595 "2011-11-16T00:59:37Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > So we’re back to the Mona Lisa not being art, because I don’t find it aesthetically pleasing. Your problem. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/596 "2011-11-16T01:39:09Z")
For the record, Terr is absolutely one of the morons I’ve pitted. Let’s hope he’s not put in charge of anything. Ever. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/597 "2011-11-16T05:31:05Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your problem. And now you’ve agreed with me–your definition leads to there being no distinction between art and not-art. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/598 "2011-11-16T05:34:32Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > And now you’ve agreed with me–your definition leads to there being no distinction between art and not-art. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/599 "2011-11-16T14:37:44Z")
> [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > If I enjoy the result, why does it matter how much skill it took to produce it? Is scratching your ass when it itches “art”? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008/600 "2011-11-16T15:36:26Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Then who judges the aesthetic and craftsmanship portions of your definition? Shall we appoint a panel? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/like-stupid-and-pompous-idiots-who-try-to-define-and-limit-what-art-is/602008.md?page=31)