# Liking the idea of a hydrogen generator for my car. Is it a scam? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 9, 2012, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169 "2012-09-09T07:18:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/21 "2012-09-09T19:07:15Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > Thank you. Please, people, stop telling me that you can’t get more energy out of the hydrogen than you spent to create it. I know that. I’m asking if the energy of the usually wasted gasoline vapors could more than make up for the electricity used, and whether in fact it’s practical. So you’re asking if you can get more energy out than you put in? That’s what is being claimed in the ads. It sounds like you understand the immutable laws of thermodynamics. Are you being misled by the hype into thinking this isn’t a factor? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/22 "2012-09-09T19:47:14Z")
If you were going to break water up into hydrogen and oxygen (a no win proposition) why would you only use the hydrogen for combustion? Based on limited information about the use of hydrogen as fuel it seems like you might do better improving the combustion with the oxygen if you had to pick just one of the elements. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/23 "2012-09-09T20:14:34Z")
But then the oxygen will use up all the hydrogen, and you’re back where you started! ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/24 "2012-09-09T21:00:01Z")
This was on the dope many years ago and I think it made the news. The basic idea was that the speed of detonation was much faster in hydrogen then the other fuels (gas or diesle) so the hydrogen would carry the combustion more evenly in the cylinder and improve efficiency. This improved efficiency would offset the energy input in creating the hydrogen. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/25 "2012-09-09T21:02:25Z")
How about if you put a big solar panel on the roof of your car and used sunlight to break water into Oxygen and Hydrogen? Why waste all that free solar energy? (Might make the inside of your car a little cooler, too…) ---
**Author:** ![Otara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a88e4f/32.png) [@Otara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otara)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/26 "2012-09-09T21:16:21Z")
I suspect the issue is practicality - if you break the water as you get power from the panel, you have to store the hydrogen, which probably means a compressor etc. If you store the power, you need a battery, adding weight. And the amount of power they currently generate is pretty tiny, which is why you see those massive solar powered cars weighing as much as a feather in order to generate motor power directly, so they’d probably struggle to generate enough hydrogen anyhow. You’d need a pretty big benefit to make the cost and complexity worth it. Otara ---
**Author:** ![Kenm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bc79bd/32.png) [@Kenm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kenm)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/27 "2012-09-09T21:25:51Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > How would someone living in a climate where small containers of water exist typically in the sold state for half the year take advantage of this? Well, duh. They’d change the water for gasoline. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/28 "2012-09-09T23:12:31Z")
_Mythbusters_ did a segment on all of these miracle fuel systems (including hydrogen) and found they were all scams. None of them improved efficiency at all. The best of them had no effect; some lowered fuel efficiency; and some wouldn’t run the car at all. [Part 1](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90szKQAjhfo) and [Part 2](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb7vhHKaGYw&feature=relmfu) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/29 "2012-09-09T23:17:46Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How about if you put a big solar panel on the roof of your car and used sunlight to break water into Oxygen and Hydrogen? Why waste all that free solar energy? (Might make the inside of your car a little cooler, too…) Weight issues. The extra weight will offset any gain. Mind you a solar panel trailer thing next to a parked car, charging it, can work. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/30 "2012-09-09T23:18:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > _Mythbusters_ did a segment on all of these miracle fuel systems (including hydrogen) and found they were all scams. None of them improved efficiency at all. The best of them had no effect; some lowered fuel efficiency; and some wouldn’t run the car at all. In other words, P.T. Barnum _was right._ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/31 "2012-09-10T07:33:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > This was on the dope many years ago and I think it made the news. The basic idea was that the speed of detonation was much faster in hydrogen then the other fuels (gas or diesle) so the hydrogen would carry the combustion more evenly in the cylinder and improve efficiency. This improved efficiency would offset the energy input in creating the hydrogen. This is just about the only sort of claim that makes sense in this scenario - that maybe the hydrogen does something to the process of combustion - not necessarily making it more complete, but maybe altering the rapidity or even-ness, however: It seems unlikely that this would _just coincidentally happen_ to be the case in an engine where it was never considered in the design, and in any case the practical conversion losses involved (thermodynamics aside) make it unlikely that this could ever be a winning proposition. That is, Hydogen would have to effect a _really extraordinary_ change to the way that petroleum burns in an engine, in order to offset the losses in converting mechanical to electrical energy and the losses in using electricity to split water. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/32 "2012-09-10T11:57:26Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#): > > I was under the impression that the combustion efficiency in a modern engine was darn near as good as it can ever get. The basic premise of the OP is completely wrong. There isn’t a bunch of unburned fuel going out the exhaust, and adding anything to it won’t make the fuel burn better. The combustion is already pretty much 100 percent complete. > > The waste in a modern gasoline engine is that about 3/4ths of the energy from that combustion gets wasted as heat, which a hydrogen generator does absolutely nothing to fix. For a given fuel, yes, the modern internal combustion engine is just about as efficient as it can get, and yes, combustion efficiency (the % of fuel converted to exhaust products) is upwards of 98%. The only way to improve efficiency is to reduce the amount of heat being dumped out the exhaust and/or out the radiator. But efficiency can be improved by adulterating the ordinary gasoline fuel mixture with a small quantity of hydrogen **and** making some modifications to the engine: -hydrogen adulteration increases resistance to knock, so you the compression ratio can be increased. -hydrogen adulteration increases flame speed, enabling reliable combustion of lean mixtures and also releasing more of the fuel’s energy near TDC instead of later in the expansion stroke. Lean mixture burn cooler, losing less heat to the combustion chamber walls and leaving more to be converted to mechanical work. While hydrogen adulteration does have the potential to improve fuel economy, aftermarket systems like the one referenced by the OP won’t make a difference: -changing the compression ratio requires removal of the cylinder head so that a thin layer of metal can be removed from the bottom, reducing combustion chamber volume. Racers/gearheads do this from time to time, but it’s not an easy/cheap modification for the average car owner. -switching to lean mixtures requires an aftermarket programmable ECU in order to fiddle with the fuel map. -taking advantage of the faster combustion requires a similar degree of fiddling to optimize spark timing. optimizing fueling and spark timing requires a significant investment of time and expertise in an engine test cell. By the time a buyer of an aftermarket hydrogen system has done all this work, his car will be more efficient, but it won’t be possible to drive it far enough to recover all of that expense. A couple of reasons you won’t see this on mass-produced vehicles: -lean operation tends to produce more NOx, a regulated emission. Moreover, lean operation prevents the standard three-way catalytic converter from effectively converting that NOx back to its constituent oxygen and nitrogen. If NOx were not so tightly regulated, you probably would already have seen lean-burn engines (without hydrogen enrichment) on the market. (I am not arguing for relaxation of emissions rules here; I like having clean air to breathe.) -most vehicle owners do not want the additional hassle of having to maintain a second consumable fluid on board the vehicle. They struggle just to keep an eye on the fuel gauge, and now they’re also supposed to keep an eye on the water gauge? Screw that; they’ll just buy a smaller car that has the MPG they want without the added hassle of keeping a water tank full. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/33 "2012-09-10T12:17:17Z")
Magical water-powered increases in fuel economy seem to be a pretty popular topic when fuel prices spike. Cecil covered the idea in his column, “[Can you really get better gas mileage using your car’s engine to make ‘Brown’s gas?’](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2800/can-you-really-get-better-gas-mileage-using-your-alternator-to-make-browns-gas)” (September 12, 2008). In addition, some previous threads are here: [Hydrogen power in a car, no fuel cell](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=262509) (6/04) [Isn’t this a perpetual motion machine?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=345020) (11/05) [Motors running on water](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=377280) (6/06) [Please Settle the Daniel Dingle Debate](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=391171) (10/06) [Any validity to this? (H2O–\>HHO power)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=396640) (11/06) [Cheap hydrogen generation… is this bunk?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=438819) (10/07) [“Water Powered” cars](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=465525) (4/08) [water as fuel](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=470749) (6/08) [Can water as additonal auto fuel work efficiently?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=473704&highlight=hydrogen) (6/08) [Can you really get better gas mileage using your alternator to make “Brown’s gas?”](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=483094&highlight=hydrogen) (9/08) As multiple people have already said in this thread, there’s a nugget of real science here: use of hydrogen _can_ change the combustion in the cylinder, and that _could_ be enough of a change to increase efficiency to the point where the additional power produced offsets losses in the electrolysis system. But that’s part of the problem: the nugget of real science pastes a thin veneer of plausibility over the “run your car on water” scams. There are multiple issues with marketing a retrofit kit for an existing car, many of which have also been mentioned above. In addition, the scam ads I’ve seen always claim an implausibly high mpg gain, cite completely bogus physics, or (usually) both. If you see any of the following statements:[ul][li]Claims of over 10% improvement in efficiency (even worse is 30%, or 50%)[/li][li]Claims that water is not the lowest energy state for H and O, and additional energy can be extracted from same.[/li][li]Statements that a large percentage of the fuel (like 30% to 50%) is never burned in the cylinder (and addition of hydrogen decreases this large percentage)[/ul][/li]…then it’s a sure bet the technology is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/34 "2012-09-10T12:23:20Z")
Also (too late to edit the previous post): from [the link in the OP:](http://www.hydrogen-generators-usa.com/HHO_Gas.html) > [@](#): > > Our installers and customers see anywhere from 25% to 130% increase in MPG. Sure sign of bogosity (not that there was any doubt anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/35 "2012-09-10T17:04:24Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > But efficiency can be improved by adulterating the ordinary gasoline fuel mixture with a small quantity of hydrogen **and** making some modifications to the engine Have you read the research? Is the efficiency gain for the gasoline combustion actually enough to make up for the energy required to produce the hydrogen, and the extra weight of the hydrogen-producing/injecting apparatus? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/36 "2012-09-10T17:14:32Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > Have you read the research? Is the efficiency gain for the gasoline combustion actually enough to make up for the energy required to produce the hydrogen, and the extra weight of the hydrogen-producing/injecting apparatus? I haven’t investigated it beyond the link I provided upthread - but a link on that page leads [here,](http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/11/hydrogenenhance.html) where they claim that by using a plasma reformer on hydrocarbon fuel (as opposed to electrolysis on water), they can produce hydrogen (and CO, another helpful adulterant) at a much lower energy cost. Upthread I forgot to mention one additional source of efficiency gain: reduced pumping losses (for a give power output, lean burn means you open the throttle more). They claim theoretical overall vehicle fuel economy gains of 20-30 percent. That was written in 2005; I don’t know whether they ever developed a working prototype. What they describe seems plausible, but again, none of these gains will be realized by the OP or anyone else strapping an aftermarket system to their otherwise-stock vehicle. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/37 "2012-09-10T17:22:25Z")
Transportation companies measure fuel costs in pennies per mile. I’m sure if there was an advantage to installing a hydrogen injection system you’d see it in every commercial vehicle on the road. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/38 "2012-09-10T17:28:50Z")
> [@](#): > > -taking advantage of the faster combustion requires a similar degree of fiddling to optimize spark timing. more than that, the design of the combustion chamber itself as well as the bore and stroke of the engine all come into play. Burn rate is pretty well understood and the overall engine design has to account for the intended fuel. Same reason all cars can’t be flex-fuel even if the fuel system materials are compatible with ethanol. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/39 "2012-09-10T18:04:11Z")
A short correspondence: > [@me](#): > > “The conversion rate is 1 molecule of water equals 10,000 molecules of hydrogen”. What utter rubbish. Do you make all your sales to people who never learned what H2O means? > [@Hydrogen-Generators-USA](#): > > I think what you mean is one drop equals 10,000 molecules off HHO. Did you email just to give us a hard time? > [@me](#): > > Basically yes, to answer your question. But what I “mean”, and put in my email title, was a direct copy/paste from your website as it was about twelve hours ago. And your revised answer works only for very small values of “drop”… in the femtolitre range. > > I agree that there is probably no point continuing this conversation if I am just going to be uncivil, but I have to ask: why sell this technology to drivers for a lousy few hundred bucks when, if it works as advertised, auto manufacturers should be offering you millions in exchange for the massive competitive edge it would give them? And, predictably: > [@Hydrogen-Generators-USA](#): > > It is all a big lie, and to prove my point sense the 50,s car manufacturer’s have built vehicles that can achieve 40 to 50mpg. Most of these models were only on the market for a short time. If they were looking for an edge over the competition we would have cars on the road right now that could achieve 150 mpg and better. Who do you think calls the shots? Who do you think owns the world? Big oil and until we wake up and see the light we will forever be slaves. > . > You appear to be somewhat of a intelligent individual, Do a little research as to what kind of MPGs we have seen over the last 60 years and think how far we have gone with all other technologies. Are you telling me we have reached our zenith with MPG gains? I personally know of individuals that invented carburetors back in the 70’s and 80’s that could achieve over 80 MPG. Where did the products go? Maybe Obama is going to release them next month before the election so he can make good on his promises. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2012, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169/40 "2012-09-10T19:04:14Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > How about if you put a big solar panel on the roof of your car and used sunlight to break water into Oxygen and Hydrogen? Why waste all that free solar energy? (Might make the inside of your car a little cooler, too…) Or! We could put a wind turbine on top of the car, so the faster you drive, the more energy you create!😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/liking-the-idea-of-a-hydrogen-generator-for-my-car-is-it-a-scam/634169.md?page=3)