# Limbaugh: "Hitler, Lenin, Stalin were all men of the left" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 10, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972 "2009-08-10T20:19:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/141 "2009-08-11T18:49:30Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > Ah, the aptly named **Red Fury** enters the fray. Que pasa, brother? > > 🙂 Hiya **Svin**! As you can see I’m as tactful and gentle as ever with The Troglodytes. And as I can see, you’re still trying to _reason_ with them. Back to the future it is! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/142 "2009-08-11T21:07:07Z")
**mswas** : > [@](#): > > _I think you are confusing socialism with communism._ Nope. > [@](#): > > _Yes, I do see. I do so love when someone makes my argument back to me as though they are trying to convince me of something._ Sorry. I don’t understand what you mean with this. > [@](#): > > _Good counterpoint. So let me ask you then, why would Hitler use the term, “National Socialism”?_ This is a good question, actually, and I don’t have a straightforward answer at the moment, only a few wikipedia cites. According to [one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism): > [@](#): > > \*\*National Socialism is a political term that is both vague and ambiguous. As the name suggests, features of nationalism and socialism are combined and interrelated to form an overall National Socialist ideology, although the combination process is neither obvious nor straightforward
 > > As a generic concept, National Socialism opposes capitalism, communism, Democratic Socialism and liberalism
\*\* So it is a form of socialism that opposes communism and Democratic socialism (?) Kinda weird. The term was coined, apparently, by [Maurice BarrĂ©s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Barr%C3%A8s), a French scholar, political activist and anti-semite, whose work primarily sought to bridge the gap between the far left and the far right. The National Socialist Party was originally called the [German Worker’s Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers%27_Party): > [@](#): > > \*\*On 5 January 1919, Drexler, together with Gottfried Feder, Dietrich Eckart and Karl Harrer, and twenty workers from Munich’s railway shops and some others met to discuss the creation of a new political party based on the political principles which Drexler endorsed. Drexler proposed that the party be named the German-Socialist Workers Party, but Harrer objected to using the term “socialist” in the name, the issue was settled by removing the term from the name, and it was agreed that the party was named the German Workers’ Party (Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, DAP). To ease concerns among potential middle-class nationalist supporters, Drexler made clear that unlike Marxists, the party supported middle-class citizens, and that the party’s socialist policy was meant to give social welfare to German citizens deemed part of the Aryan race. They became one of many völkisch movements that existed in Germany at the time. Like other völkisch groups, the DAP advocated the belief that Germany should become a unified “national community” (Volksgemeinschaft) rather than a society divided along class and party lines. This ideology was explicitly anti-Semitic as it declared that the “national community” must be judenfrei (“free of Jews”). > > From the outset, the DAP was opposed to non-nationalist political movements, especially on the left, including the Social Democratic Party of Germany (SPD) and the newly-formed Communist Party of Germany (KPD). Members of the DAP saw themselves as fighting against “Bolshevism” and anyone considered to be part of or aiding so-called “international Jewry”. > > The Party believed that Social Welfare was the business of the State. Before the Nazi movement, the churches administered charity. The government enforced a collection of a 10% tithe which was paid directly to the churches. This charitable bureaucracy was shifted to the State.\*\* So, in essence, they used the term “socialism” to mean a state-run welfare system. The party’s hostility towards marxism and traditional socialism – as the term is usually understood, in its historic context – is pretty clear. It seems to me they were trying to appropriate the term for their own use. Hitler joined the GWP in 1920 and shortly thereafter proposed the [name change](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm): > [@](#): > > \*\*In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany. > > Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word ‘National’ before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had “German blood”. Jews and other “aliens” would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end. > > In February 1920, the NSDAP published its first programme which became known as the “Twenty-Five Points”. In the programme the party refused to accept the terms of the Versailles Treaty and called for the reunification of all German people. To reinforce their ideas on nationalism, equal rights were only to be given to German citizens. “Foreigners” and “aliens” would be denied these rights. > > To appeal to the working class and socialists, the programme included several measures that would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing in large industries, nationalization of trusts, increases in old-age pensions and free education.\*\* This was a cunning historical move as well, since it allowed future revisionists to claim that Hitler was actually a socialist! Paxton makes some interesting observations as well, but the linked article is a PDF file, and I can’t copy and paste it; I hope you don’t mind if I paraphrase, and feel free to correct me if you think I’ve gotten it wrong. Basically he argues that one of the mistakes historians have made in studying fascism has been to approach as it if it actually possessed some sort of underlying, unifying ideology. According to Dr. P, this is not the case. Fascism is motivated primarily by “themes” involving unity, purity, and victimization (among others). There is no “fascist manifesto”, and fascist party programs “correspond only distantly with what fascist movements do once they have power.” According to Paxton, ideology and “founding texts” are utterly irrelevant to the actual practice of fascism. It’s not as if fascists go back after they’ve shifted positions and try to explain their actions in terms of their party program, for example; rather, the program is simply ignored. So, back to something you wrote earlier, and I agreed with, it seems very difficult to map fascism precisely on the traditional left/right political scale. It seems more of a kind of social movement that seeks power, and thus gravitates towards politics. We can say, however, that fascism was fundamentally opposed to socialism, as the term is usually understood, and that as the German and Italian fascism movements grew, they found a natural ally among Conservatives on the political right, for various reasons. In doing this they utterly abandoned all pretense towards any socialist tendencies that might have been incorporated as a part of the party platform at an earlier period. I think this is a fair assessment, but, of course, YMMV. > [@](#): > > _You make a good argument. The problem I have with all of these arguments is the assertion that one side is rational and the other is not. I have never found this to be true. I have never found that one side is more rational than the other. One side is more likely to use rationalism as a rallying cry, but that doesn’t make them more rational. It just makes, ‘rational’, another symbolic political icon which can be used to stir fervor amongst the rank and file._ I think that I’m fairly rational. I know that birthers aren’t. But otherwise, this line of argument is a bit of a non-sequeter. Of course, with enough ingenuity, you can shoe-horn Paxton’s “mobilizing passions” into any ideology; but you’re arguing in a vacuum. If you look instead at the historical record, you will find that fascist texts/programs/etc. are definitely preoccupied, in a very big way, with the themes Paxton has presented. Socialists, not so. Oh, there are certainly smaller movements or groups withing socialism that might display some (or even all) of these passions, and that could therefore be accurately viewed as really fascist (or proto-fascist). But in general, this is not the case. Socialist rhetoric tends to focus on social injustice, exploitation, class solidarity, and equality. **Red!** Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
 But is mswas one of _them_? I can’t recall having had a debate with him before, and so far he seems fairly reasonable
 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/143 "2009-08-11T21:31:49Z")
Hitler was originally sent to spy on that worker’s party by the police, and attended an unknown number of meetings. Finally, at one meeting discussing tactics in a coming political conflict, he got up and began speaking, urging the members to violent confrontation. He found his calling. He was a smash hit, demogogue wise. He resigned his position with the police, and was very quickly the leader of the party. After that, its platform and positions became irrelevent, they were the party of raw emotions. Remember, they drew a lot of thier early strengths from the violent resentment of German WWI veterans who felt they had been betrayed, and craved vengeance. After this point, Nazism had no real political agenda at all. Just raw nationalism, militarism, and anti-Semitism. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/144 "2009-08-11T22:27:31Z")
[http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/](http://obamaisliterallyhitler.tumblr.com/) I presume it is satire. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/145 "2009-08-11T22:48:13Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > 
 **Red!** > > Same as it ever was, same as it ever was
 > > But is mswas one of _them_? I can’t recall having had a debate with him before, and so far he seems fairly reasonable
 Yeah, he _seems_ that way at first, but it’s a slow descent into sheer kookiness from there – crystals, ghosts, UFOs, magik, political incoherence as you’re seeing here
in short, quite the package. Here, a bit of background of what you’re getting into: [**Threads started by mswas in GD**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=4526555) I’ve hardly read any of them – title usually tells me all I need to know. But this one I simply couldn’t avoid: [**Iraq is a total failure and is still on the brink of civil war**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=521079) This post, in the thread that generated that one, is worth repeating – over and over: > [@Fraudulent Elections in Iran](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/48): > > > [@Fraudulent Elections in Iran](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/fraudulent-elections-in-iran/499671/48): > > > > Yep, pretty much destroyed the country and now leave it in a state of civil war. An achievement to be proud of and which should be repeated in more countries in that region. > > It’s amazing that you guys don’t even realize that this statement is basically counter-factual. [**It is looking quite likely that Iraq was a stunning success**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11242911&postcount=62)
 Yep, “stunning” indeed. 😉 But hey, not trying to stop you, 'cause I’ll be the first to tell you he’s good for a few laughs. And behind all the lunacy he seems to be a fairly decent chap
unlike others that shall remain nameless. So
enjoy!..and don’t go hibernating so soon on us. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/146 "2009-08-11T22:49:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Hitler was originally sent to spy on that worker’s party by the police, and attended an unknown number of meetings. Finally, at one meeting discussing tactics in a coming political conflict, he got up and began speaking, urging the members to violent confrontation. He found his calling. He was a smash hit, demogogue wise. He resigned his position with the police, and was very quickly the leader of the party. After that, its platform and positions became irrelevent, they were the party of raw emotions. Remember, they drew a lot of thier early strengths from the violent resentment of German WWI veterans who felt they had been betrayed, and craved vengeance. > > After this point, Nazism had no real political agenda at all. Just raw nationalism, militarism, and anti-Semitism. And many of those who were violently resentful of the loss of WW I blamed the Socialists for it. Also, the idealistic part of socialism at the time rejected nationalism, and claimed that socialism was a movement that knew no national borders. How that worked out is another matter. So National Socialism is an oxymoron, actually. I think socialism has grown away from that, but it was still strong in 1919. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/147 "2009-08-11T22:52:36Z")
Just so. I remember Barbara Tuchman made quite a point of emphasizing the naivete of the European Socialist movement, who apparently believed that working class Germans would not fire upon their working class French brethren. Alas. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/148 "2009-08-11T23:04:51Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > And many of those who were violently resentful of the loss of WW I blamed the Socialists for it. Even though the German **and** French socialist parties in their respective countries’ parliaments actually betrayed their purported internationalist principles on the eve of the war by voting for war credits. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2009, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/149 "2009-08-11T23:49:24Z")
> [@Mr.Svinlesha](#): > > This is a good question, actually, and I don’t have a straightforward answer at the moment, only a few wikipedia cites. According to [one](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialism): > So it is a form of socialism that opposes communism and Democratic socialism (?) Kinda weird. The term was coined, apparently, by [Maurice BarrĂ©s](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Barr%C3%A8s), a French scholar, political activist and anti-semite, whose work primarily sought to bridge the gap between the far left and the far right. > > The National Socialist Party was originally called the [German Worker’s Party](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_German_Workers%27_Party): > So, in essence, they used the term “socialism” to mean a state-run welfare system. The party’s hostility towards marxism and traditional socialism – as the term is usually understood, in its historic context – is pretty clear. It seems to me they were trying to appropriate the term for their own use. I think that’s generally how socialism is used today. You’ve done a very good job at portraying the nuance between Hitler’s fascism and Stalin and Barack Obama. > [@](#): > > Hitler joined the GWP in 1920 and shortly thereafter proposed the [name change](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm): > This was a cunning historical move as well, since it allowed future revisionists to claim that Hitler was actually a socialist! Somehow I doubt he was thinking about how he could polish his legacy in case he lost. 😃 > [@](#): > > Paxton makes some interesting observations as well, but the linked article is a PDF file, and I can’t copy and paste it; I hope you don’t mind if I paraphrase, and feel free to correct me if you think I’ve gotten it wrong. Basically he argues that one of the mistakes historians have made in studying fascism has been to approach as it if it actually possessed some sort of underlying, unifying ideology. According to Dr. P, this is not the case. Fascism is motivated primarily by “themes” involving unity, purity, and victimization (among others). There is no “fascist manifesto”, and fascist party programs “correspond only distantly with what fascist movements do once they have power.” According to Paxton, ideology and “founding texts” are utterly irrelevant to the actual practice of fascism. It’s not as if fascists go back after they’ve shifted positions and try to explain their actions in terms of their party program, for example; rather, the program is simply ignored. So, back to something you wrote earlier, and I agreed with, it seems very difficult to map fascism precisely on the traditional left/right political scale. It seems more of a kind of social movement that seeks power, and thus gravitates towards politics. We can say, however, that fascism was fundamentally opposed to socialism, as the term is usually understood, and that as the German and Italian fascism movements grew, they found a natural ally among Conservatives on the political right, for various reasons. In doing this they utterly abandoned all pretense towards any socialist tendencies that might have been incorporated as a part of the party platform at an earlier period. > > I think this is a fair assessment, but, of course, YMMV. That’s a very interesting way to look at it and it definitely makes a lot of sense. > [@](#): > > I think that I’m fairly rational. I know that birthers aren’t. But otherwise, this line of argument is a bit of a non-sequeter. Of course, with enough ingenuity, you can shoe-horn Paxton’s “mobilizing passions” into any ideology; but you’re arguing in a vacuum. If you look instead at the historical record, you will find that fascist texts/programs/etc. are definitely preoccupied, in a very big way, with the themes Paxton has presented. Socialists, not so. Oh, there are certainly smaller movements or groups withing socialism that might display some (or even all) of these passions, and that could therefore be accurately viewed as really fascist (or proto-fascist). But in general, this is not the case. Socialist rhetoric tends to focus on social injustice, exploitation, class solidarity, and equality. I think you are very rational too, but the socialism you describe is fundamentally irrational since it is based off of an irrational prejudice. That there is a class called, ‘workers’, internationally and that they have a common cause wherever they are. Well the idea that there is a class (unifying in-group) that is struggling against ‘The Man’ (unifying and purging the outgroup) who keeps them oppressed (victimization) with whom they must struggle and even overthrow if it is necessary. (glorification of violence) It seems that on your bullet point list of characteristics they for the most part can apply to either side. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/150 "2009-08-12T00:19:07Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Yeah, he _seems_ that way at first, but it’s a slow descent into sheer kookiness from there – crystals, ghosts, UFOs, magik, political incoherence as you’re seeing here
in short, quite the package. LOL, the need to lie to me eh? I’d like to see any posts I’ve made about crystals, ghosts, or UFOs. And it appears that in your world, “political incoherence”, is a synonym for disagreement. You’ve always been a fucktard who hides stupidity behind a layer of malice. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/151 "2009-08-12T01:06:48Z")
Well, at least he’s a Yurpeen fuctard. You’re domestic. Besides, he’s run with the bulls at Papilloma! ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/152 "2009-08-12T01:53:50Z")
During today’s town hall, Obama got asked a question that was basically, “will you kill my Grandma?” Obama got to answering it in around about way, but the surprisingly candid answer was “yes. I will kill your grandma.” For someone who wants to look it up (I already heard it.) the question was the one the guy asked about his grandma’s will to live and Obama cried bullshit on the will to live question because, hey, who can quantify that? And someone disinterested and qualified needs to decide whether money should be spent on an operation for Gram, or if she should just take a bunch of pain-pills. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/153 "2009-08-12T02:12:11Z")
[Frankenstein monster]OBAMA scary!!![/fm] > **[The Daily Show with Trevor Noah | Comedy Central](https://www.cc.com/shows/the-daily-show-with-trevor-noah)** > > The Daily Show is an Emmy- and Peabody Award-winning program that looks at the day’s top headlines through a sharp, reality-based lens. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/154 "2009-08-12T02:17:26Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > During today’s town hall, Obama got asked a question that was basically, “will you kill my Grandma?” > > Obama got to answering it in around about way, but the surprisingly candid answer was “yes. I will kill your grandma.” > For someone who wants to look it up (I already heard it.) the question was the one the guy asked about his grandma’s will to live and Obama cried bullshit on the will to live question because, hey, who can quantify that? And someone disinterested and qualified needs to decide whether money should be spent on an operation for Gram, or if she should just take a bunch of pain-pills. Please find the clip or transcript . I can hardly wait. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/155 "2009-08-12T02:22:39Z")
Well, you knew it was bound to happen, Obama’s such a wildly emotional guy, loose cannon, sooner or later he was going to have a total public meltdown like this, surprising thing is it took six months, borderline psychotic that he is, amazing he lasted that long. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/156 "2009-08-12T03:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > During today’s town hall, Obama got asked a question that was basically, “will you kill my Grandma?” > > Obama got to answering it in around about way, but the surprisingly candid answer was “yes. I will kill your grandma.” > > For someone who wants to look it up (I already heard it.) the question was the one the guy asked about his grandma’s will to live and Obama cried bullshit on the will to live question because, hey, who can quantify that? And someone disinterested and qualified needs to decide whether money should be spent on an operation for Gram, or if she should just take a bunch of pain-pills. Do you think you stretched reality far enough on this one? Does this let you see how bizarro your claim is? > [@](#): > > During today’s town hall, Bush got asked a question that was basically, “will you kill my son?” > > Bush got to answering it in around about way, but the surprisingly candid answer was “yes. I will kill your son.” > > For someone who wants to look it up (I already heard it.) the question was the one the guy asked about his son joining the army and Bush cried bullshit on when the Iraqis will be able to defend themselves, hey, who can quantify that? And so we need to keep American troops in Iraq to prevent a complete collapse there. If you want to argue that universal health care may be inefficiently managed by the government or that it’ll cost too much in new taxes, fine, I may disagree but I’ll listen to your opinions and look at the evidence. But when people start claiming that Obama and the Democrats are planning to murder old people, then my response is that their opinions are worthless and there’s no reason to listening to them. It’s like somebody claiming that the reason we invaded Iraq is because Bush was told to do so by the Jews who run the country. You should be out on a street corner screaming at pigeons. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/157 "2009-08-12T04:24:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > During today’s town hall, Obama got asked a question that was basically, “will you kill my Grandma?” > > Obama got to answering it in around about way, but the surprisingly candid answer was “yes. I will kill your grandma.” > > For someone who wants to look it up (I already heard it.) the question was the one the guy asked about his grandma’s will to live and Obama cried bullshit on the will to live question because, hey, who can quantify that? And someone disinterested and qualified needs to decide whether money should be spent on an operation for Gram, or if she should just take a bunch of pain-pills. Now see, if you had ever made some sort of effort to portray yourself as something other than a propagandist when it comes to political issues, this might be be worth checking out, implausible as it is. But of course there’s really no point in doing so. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/158 "2009-08-12T05:12:36Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > Now see, if you had ever made some sort of effort to portray yourself as something other than a propagandist when it comes to political issues, this might be be worth checking out, implausible as it is. But of course there’s really no point in doing so. Here is [the transcript](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/HealthCare/Story?id=7920012&page=2) I assume he’s referring to. It wasn’t “today” unless by “today” he means “June 24.” > [@](#): > > OBAMA: But, look, the first thing for all of us to understand is that we actually have some – some choices to make about how we want to deal with our own end-of-life care. > > And that’s one of the things I think that we can all promote, and this is not a big government program. This is something that each of us individually can do, is to draft and sign a living will so that we’re very clear with our doctors about how we want to approach the end of life. > > I don’t think that we can make judgments based on peoples’ spirit. > > That would be a pretty subjective decision to be making. I think we have to have rules that say that we are going to provide good, quality care for all people. > > GIBSON: But the money may not have been there for her pacemaker or for your grandmother’s hip replacement. > > OBAMA: Well, and – and that’s absolutely true. And end-of-life care is one of the most difficult sets of decisions that we’re going to have to make. > > I don’t want bureaucracies making those decisions, but understand that those decisions are already being made in one way or another. If they’re not being made under Medicare and Medicaid, they’re being made by private insurers. > > We don’t always make those decisions explicitly. We often make those decisions by just letting people run out of money or making the deductibles so high or the out-of-pocket expenses so onerous that they just can’t afford the care. > > And all we’re suggesting – and we’re not going to solve every difficult problem in terms of end-of-life care. A lot of that is going to have to be, we as a culture and as a society starting to make better decisions within our own families and for ourselves. > > But what we can do is make sure that at least some of the waste that exists in the system that’s not making anybody’s mom better, that is loading up on additional tests or additional drugs that the evidence shows is not necessarily going to improve care, that at least we can let doctors know and your mom know that, you know what? Maybe this isn’t going to help. Maybe you’re better off not having the surgery, but taking the painkiller. > > And those kinds of decisions between doctors and patients, and making sure that our incentives are not preventing those good decision, and that – that doctors and hospitals all are aligned for patient care, that’s something we can achieve. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/159 "2009-08-12T06:15:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > LOL, the need to lie to me eh? I’d like to see any posts I’ve made about crystals, ghosts, or UFOs
 Honest? I have no friggin’ clue nor do I care to find out. Or don’t you remember the Scientology thread were I asked you write the mishmash of hokum you call your “beliefs” and then I’d pitch them to other idiots and we’d split the take? At any rate, I did find this OP of yours a [del]doozy[/del] erm
edifying. [**Drugs as Sacraments**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=242937) Actually explains quite a bit more than I needed to know. 😉 > [@](#): > > _And it appears that in your world, “political incoherence”, is a synonym for disagreement._ No, not really, it’s just that when a dipshit like you calls Iraq “a stunning success” and actually starts a “debate” to defend said nuttery, well, yeah
I tend to be rather dismissive. But near fear, you’re now engaged with **Mr S** , whose patience Job would envy. So go ahead and do likewise – dismiss moi. > [@](#): > > _You’ve always been a fucktard who hides stupidity behind a layer of malice. 😛_ Thanks. I’d be worried if you didn’t think so. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Svinlesha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/22d042/32.png) [@Mr.Svinlesha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Svinlesha)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2009, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972/160 "2009-08-12T06:37:02Z")
I kinda agree with [Ezra Klein](http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2009/08/it_is_democracy_not_health-car.html) on this. Take a step back and look at the big picture. There are people who appear to sincerely believe that the US government, the Democrats, the political Left in America, or the progressive movement (or some combination of the above) would actually promote a program to euthanize old people. That this is something countries with UHC (like Sweden) actually do. Apparently, they think we’re monsters. To even make this accusation is not only to leave behind any pretense to rationality; it is also to deeply insult to one’s political opponents. It would be like me accusing those who supported the invasion of Iraq of actually _wanting_ to kill innocent Iraqis. Astounding. Imagine a news conference or town hall where someone stood up ask Bush, “Excuse me Mr. President; but I hear that the real reason you want to invade Iraq is because you enjoy killing innocent civilians. Could you comment on that?” All the long years of Fox News and Rush Limbaugh’s right-wing propaganda really has broken the US, hasn’t it? Sure looks like I got out when the getting was good. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limbaugh-hitler-lenin-stalin-were-all-men-of-the-left/505972.md?page=9)