# Limitless unrestricted immigration : How can you defend this 'liberal' viewpoint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120 "2017-05-08T12:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/41 "2017-05-08T18:41:49Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > 1. If you have a back door that has let in more people than all the people who got in legally, you are just screwing over honest people who applied legally and got rejected in favor of criminals. I see nothing straw man about 11.5 million immigrants, if that isn’t “unlimited”, what is?. A Billion? First of all, most “illegal immigrants” didnt enter the USA illegally. Next, most “Amnesty” solutions include things like living in the USA for 5 years +, no criminal record, and a record of filing and paying taxes. Stuff that a lot of “born here” citizens can’t show. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/42 "2017-05-08T18:43:20Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > I see nothing straw man about 11.5 million immigrants, if that isn’t “unlimited”, what is? Unlimited would mean no borders, no border controls, no officers along the borders, no customs, no stops, no paperwork… entering the US from Mexico would be as easy as entering Maryland from Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/43 "2017-05-08T18:55:43Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. If you have a back door that has let in more people than all the people who got in legally, you are just screwing over honest people who applied legally and got rejected in favor of criminals. I see nothing straw man about 11.5 million immigrants, if that isn’t “unlimited”, what is? Do you know what ‘unlimited’ actually means? Seriously…it means without limit. 11.5 million people did not suddenly materialize in the US…that happened over decades. Even if it happened instantly unless you want to assert that those 11.5 million represent everyone who wanted to come here from Mexico or wherever, there was and is a limit. Thus…it’s not limitless. The reality, of course, is that there are a lot of limitations on (legal) immigration, and even quite a lot of barriers and limitations on folks trying to come here illegally. > [@](#): > > 1. You are badly misinformed about how immigration works. We don’t pick the cream of the crop. Actually we just hold a lottery for visas, so we pick randomly. Even H1B, which is supposed to be the cream of the crop, is actually a lottery among a subgroup of those who qualify. Well, you don’t give any cites, but [here](https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/research/how-united-states-immigration-system-works) is a link: > [@](#): > > Preference Category > > Eligibility > > Yearly Numerical Limit > > 1 “Persons of extraordinary ability” in the arts, science, education, business, or athletics; outstanding professors and researchers, multinational executives and managers. > > 40,000\* > > 2 Members of the professions holding advanced degrees, or persons of exceptional abilities in the arts, science, or business. > > 40,000\*\* > > 3 Skilled workers with at least two years of training or experience, professionals with college degrees, or “other” workers for unskilled labor that is not temporary or seasonal. > > 40,000\*\*\* > > “Other” unskilled laborers restricted to 5,000 > > 4 Certain “special immigrants” including religious workers, employees of U.S. foreign service posts, former U.S. government employees and other classes of aliens. > > 10,000 > > 5 Persons who will invest $500,000 to $1 million in a job-creating enterprise that employs at least 10 full time U.S. workers. > > 10,000 I think where you are getting confused is the difference between (legal) immigration, and refugee/asylees and other special categories (diversity visa, humanitarian relief, etc etc). Regardless, the numbers are pretty small when compared to the overall population of the US. > [@](#): > > 1. It can be hard to separate your personal feelings from situations. Of course. Which is why I went with a full disclosure there. But I’ve yet to see how this is a major looming issue for the US…or, really, how this is substantially different from the past when people fretted about those dirty immigrants coming here and ruining the country. In the past, as a percentage of the total population we used to allow in massive numbers of immigrants compared to today, and in many cases, they WERE the poorest and least skilled/educated. Even counting all of the illegals it’s a drop in the bucket compared to the overall population. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/44 "2017-05-08T19:21:43Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So in essence, the EU was a private club of mostly wealthy western nations. These are people **who’s** ancestors essentially invented the industrial revolution… > > If you let in a bunch of poor, uneducated people from Syria or Africa **who’s** nations are falling apart into wars and desperate poverty… Bolding mine. Hard to take seriously a complaint about uneducated people by someone who doesn’t know the difference between “who’s” and “whose”. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/45 "2017-05-08T19:30:21Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > Actually, what he’s describing is a system where black people get preferential treatment in front of a lot white people (Most of us have been here since the 1700s). And Native Americans in front of everyone. I don’t think that’s what he intended, though. > It’s also still a horrible idea. He did say people from Africa were a problem in the OP. So I’m guessing black people don’t fit in to his ideal for America. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/46 "2017-05-08T19:36:25Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > If you have a back door that has let in more people than all the people who got in legally, you are just screwing over honest people who applied legally and got rejected in favor of criminals. Who got rejected in favor of criminals? What on Earth are you talking about? But aside from that, you’re wrong about the ability for “honest people” who want to apply for legal immigration. The quota for average Mexicans who want to immigrate to America legally but have no special circumstances is zero. No Mexicans are allowed to apply for normal legal immigration, including the lottery. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/47 "2017-05-08T19:42:45Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He did say people from Africa were a problem in the OP. So I’m guessing black people don’t fit in to his ideal for America. Do you think Africa is only populated by blacks?:rolleyes: Do you think Blacks only come from Africa? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/48 "2017-05-08T19:54:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Who got rejected in favor of criminals? What on Earth are you talking about? > > But aside from that, you’re wrong about the ability for “honest people” who want to apply for legal immigration. The quota for average Mexicans who want to immigrate to America legally but have no special circumstances is zero. No Mexicans are allowed to apply for normal legal immigration, including the lottery. You just said it. Right there in your own goddamn post. "_Who got rejected in favor of criminals"_ ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/49 "2017-05-08T19:55:39Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He did say people from Africa were a problem in the OP. So I’m guessing black people don’t fit in to his ideal for America. Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. The fact that black people live there is beside the point. And I even explicitly mentioned Asians, model minority that they are, if the USA needs any more immigrants, it should be cream of the crop people from basically Japan, Taiwan, India, and China. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/50 "2017-05-08T20:11:12Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > You just said it. Right there in your own goddamn post. "_Who got rejected in favor of criminals"_ Yes, I wrote that. And that funny looking punctuation thing at the end is a question mark. You wrote _“you are just screwing over honest people who applied legally and got rejected in favor of criminals.”_ And I asked what you are talking about. How did honest people get rejected in favor of criminals? Who was making the choice between letting in an honest person and letting in a criminal? Who are these criminals that were allowed to come in instead of honest people? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/51 "2017-05-08T20:14:07Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > He did say people from Africa were a problem in the OP. So I’m guessing black people don’t fit in to his ideal for America. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Do you think Africa is only populated by blacks?:rolleyes: Do you think Blacks only come from Africa? :dubious: > [@SamuelA](#): > > Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. The fact that black people live there is beside the point. I guess I don’t have to rebut the argument that maybe he wasn’t talking about black Africans. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/52 "2017-05-08T20:26:23Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. The fact that black people live there is beside the point. And I even explicitly mentioned Asians, model minority that they are, if the USA needs any more immigrants, it should be cream of the crop people from basically Japan, Taiwan, India, and China. Dude, stop with the “cream of the crop” shit. It’s silly. It’s racist and silly. Actually, it’s backdoor eugenics. You don’t get to choose the next generation’s demographic trends, even if such a thing were actually possible. The poor and uneducated are offensive to you, we get it. That doesn’t mean they can’t live here in the US with the rest of us. No one is asking you to make space for them in your guest bedroom. Why does it matter to you that only rich doctors and lawyers can immigrate, and only from Asian countries? Seriously, who does it hurt for a poor African to move to the US? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/53 "2017-05-08T20:39:22Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Yes, I wrote that. And that funny looking punctuation thing at the end is a question mark. > > You wrote _“you are just screwing over honest people who applied legally and got rejected in favor of criminals.”_ And I asked what you are talking about. > > How did honest people get rejected in favor of criminals? Who was making the choice between letting in an honest person and letting in a criminal? Who are these criminals that were allowed to come in instead of honest people? MEXICANS. As you said, the legal ones are screwed because the illegal ones are not prevented from entering. ---
**Author:** ![de\_facto\_lies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@de\_facto\_lies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/de_facto_lies)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/54 "2017-05-08T20:39:54Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. The fact that black people live there is beside the point. And I even explicitly mentioned Asians, model minority that they are, if the USA needs any more immigrants, it should be cream of the crop people from basically Japan, Taiwan, India, and China. I’m not sure what this nonsense about “cream of the crop” is supposed to mean but if you check this study, albeit from 2013, still gives a pretty clear indicator of trends when concerning immigration and employment. quick quote “Middle Eastern and North African immigrants tend to have much higher educational attainment compared to the overall foreign- and native-born adult populations.” Your arguments are nonsense and blatantly racist. Just looking at the Employed Workers in the U.S. Civilian Labor Force (ages 16 and older) by Occupation and Origin, 2013 in the article I cited proves you know nothing about the immigrants coming over other than “they’re not white and didn’t live here as long as I did” I don’t care how long you’ve been in this country, you are entitled to NOTHING. > **[Middle Eastern and North African Immigrants in the United States](https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/middle-eastern-and-north-african-immigrants-united-states)** > > Immigration to the United States from the Middle East and North Africa is longstanding and multifaceted. Compared to other immigrants, those from the Middle East and North Africa are more likely to be proficient in English, have graduated college,... ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/55 "2017-05-08T20:40:25Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > t. That doesn’t mean they can’t live here in the US with the rest of us. No one is asking you to make space for them in your guest bedroom. Why does it matter to you that only rich doctors and lawyers can immigrate, and only from Asian countries? Seriously, who does it hurt for a poor African to move to the US? Do you not even grasp the _concept_ of there being vicious competition for jobs and space to live in? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/56 "2017-05-08T20:44:57Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. The fact that black people live there is beside the point. And I even explicitly mentioned Asians, model minority that they are, if the USA needs any more immigrants, it should be cream of the crop people from basically Japan, Taiwan, India, and China. Statistically, African immigrants to America have extremely good outcomes. We should have more African immigrants, not less, since they bring so much to the country. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/57 "2017-05-08T20:45:22Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > MEXICANS. As you said, the legal ones are screwed because the illegal ones are not prevented from entering. Simply not true. Or, do you have a cite for this? You didn’t provide one for your last assertion which was wrong, so I’m not sanguine you will this time either. You COULD do a quick Google search and see how many people from Mexico LEGALLY immigrate each year (you’d perhaps be astonished that Mexico is the single largest nation for immigration to the US each year), which would perhaps indicate to you that your gut feeling or whatever you are using to make these assertions is, well, wrong… ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/58 "2017-05-08T20:50:26Z")
I think there is a big fundamental difference in underlying motive: Conservatives are more likely to think,\* “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”\* Liberals are more likely to think, _“Does immigration of [people group X] benefit [people group X]?”_ ---
**Author:** ![de\_facto\_lies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ba8739/32.png) [@de\_facto\_lies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/de_facto_lies)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/59 "2017-05-08T20:51:18Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Do you not even grasp the _concept_ of there being vicious competition for jobs and space to live in? if vicious competition and space to live in is your real worry here, why not move to the countries people are migrating from. I am sure your superior genetics would make it such a better place. You don’t seem to understand the concept of competition at all. Don’t hate the players hate the game. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/60 "2017-05-08T20:54:55Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Conservatives are more likely to think,\* “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”\* > > Liberals are more likely to think, _“Does immigration of [people group X] benefit [people group X]?”_ I might change that: Conservatives are more likely to think, “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit _me_?” Liberals are more likely to think, “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit _humanity_?” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=4)