# Limitless unrestricted immigration : How can you defend this 'liberal' viewpoint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120 "2017-05-08T12:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/61 "2017-05-08T21:04:11Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think there is a big fundamental difference in underlying motive: > > Conservatives are more likely to think,\* “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”\* > > Liberals are more likely to think, _“Does immigration of [people group X] benefit [people group X]?”_ There might be a big difference, but this isn’t it. I see no reason to believe that conservatives are any more likely to consider the welfare of the country as a whole with regards to immigration policy. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/62 "2017-05-08T21:08:29Z")
> [@de\_facto\_lies](#): > > if vicious competition and space to live in is your real worry here, why not move to the countries people are migrating from. I am sure your superior genetics would make it such a better place. > > You don’t seem to understand the concept of competition at all. Don’t hate the players hate the game. … Have you ever even been 16 in a state like Texas, where all the employers give you the run around and all the jobs at the entry level are taken by illegals? This sounds like the kind of bullshit my parents pulled then, refusing to pay for me taking the SAT unless I got a job, and of course I had a great deal of difficulty getting one as basically a shiftless teenager without experience. I don’t blame employers for choosing the better candidate - a hard working Mexican is clearly the right choice - but those folks shouldn’t have even _been_ in the labor pool. And of course, once I did get a job, the restaurant kitchen sounded like we were in Mexico. I was the majority, in a country that my grandparents had fought for, my dad barely dodged the draft with an exemption, and I myself eventually served in the military. What exactly did the illegals do? Why should I have had to compete with them for jobs, or learn Spanish or be left out? Da fuq. As for genetics, fine, let’s say it’s just culture. Mexico is a corrupt shithole. Let in limitless Mexicans - legal or illegal - and maybe this country will become a corrupt shithole as well. Well, more than it already is. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/63 "2017-05-08T21:08:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I see no reason to believe that conservatives are any more likely to consider the welfare of the country as a whole with regards to immigration policy. You’ve never read comments of the _“Illegal immigrants are taking our jobs/committing crimes/making the country worse/getting a free ride on welfare/Social Security”_ sort? ---
**Author:** ![Esco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9de053/32.png) [@Esco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Esco)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/64 "2017-05-08T21:10:53Z")
Having open borders would completely destroy the Olympics and the World Cup of soccer virtually overnight. Anyone could just start representing whatever country they’d like ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/65 "2017-05-08T21:17:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > You’ve never read comments of the _“Illegal immigrants are taking our jobs/committing crimes/making the country worse/getting a free ride on welfare/Social Security”_ sort? Of course, but there are plenty of similar arguments from liberals – immigrants start businesses, have lower crime, enhance the culture, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/66 "2017-05-08T21:21:10Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Of course, but there are plenty of similar arguments from liberals – immigrants start businesses, have lower crime, enhance the culture, etc. Yes, but my point is, conservatives often evaluate immigration’s merits on whether or not they think it is beneficial to the country’s welfare. Whether those evaluations are correct or not is another matter entirely. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/67 "2017-05-08T21:22:34Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Conservatives are more likely to think, “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit _me_?” " To me, it seems like _Conservatives are more likely to think_…\*.immigration is bad. \* ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/68 "2017-05-08T21:36:21Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Yes, but my point is, conservatives often evaluate immigration’s merits on whether or not they think it is beneficial to the country’s welfare. Whether those evaluations are correct or not is another matter entirely. So do liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/69 "2017-05-08T22:03:34Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > So do liberals. Liberals are more likely than conservatives to look at immigration from the perspective of the immigrant’s benefit. The bulk of the liberal arguments in favor of taking in refugees weren’t, “Refugees are good for America,” but, rather, “Isn’t America good for refugees?” ---
**Author:** ![mikecurtis](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikecurtis/32/3284_2.png) [@mikecurtis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mikecurtis)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/70 "2017-05-08T22:09:22Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Do you not even grasp the _concept_ of there being vicious competition for jobs and space to live in? except that it’s probably a myth from [fortune magazine](http://fortune.com/2016/04/17/immigration-open-borders/) a moderately conservative pro business publication > [@](#): > > The usual reasons have been given: Migrants and refugees will steal our jobs. Or, instead, they’re too lazy to work. Crime rates are higher among immigrants. Or, even worse, they’re all terrorists in disguise. > > There’s just one problem with all of the standard arguments against migration: They’re wrong. > > In fact, plenty of research shows that there is no better way to make the world wealthier—a lot wealthier—than migration. Four different studies have shown that, depending on the level of movement in the global labor market, the estimated growth in “gross worldwide product” would be in the range of 67% to 147%. Effectively, open borders would make the whole world twice as rich. mc ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/71 "2017-05-08T22:10:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The bulk of the liberal arguments in favor of taking in refugees weren’t, “Refugees are good for America,” but, rather, “Isn’t America good for refugees?” That certainly wasn’t the impression I got. This sure sounds like the very picture of a strawman argument. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/72 "2017-05-08T22:15:56Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That certainly wasn’t the impression I got. This sure sounds like the very picture of a strawman argument. Your impression is your impression, mine is mine. Everyone reads different news and interacts in a different social circle. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/73 "2017-05-08T22:19:50Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Do you not even grasp the _concept_ of there being vicious competition for jobs and space to live in? Surely you didn’t think the “cream of the crop” would spend thousands of dollars and travel thousands of miles just to lay around and remain idle once they land on our shores? Ever heard of economics? Competition in the marketplace is a _good_ thing. IF these immigrants are so inferior to the locally-born, they will not be any competition at all. If they are _superior_ to the locals, _that will be a very good thing for the US and its economy_. If you’re so worried about the poor, uncompetitive American worker, give him a basic income and let the competitive workers move here and do better work cheaper. You know, the American dream? Buy American, American manufacturing, Horatio Alger, free market, bootstraps, etc? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/74 "2017-05-08T22:19:53Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Liberals are more likely than conservatives to look at immigration from the perspective of the immigrant’s benefit. > > The bulk of the liberal arguments in favor of taking in refugees weren’t, “Refugees are good for America,” but, rather, “Isn’t America good for refugees?” Liberals might argue from both points of view, but that doesn’t mean that conservatives think of the country’s welfare any more than liberals. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/75 "2017-05-08T22:22:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Liberals might argue from both points of view, but that doesn’t mean that conservatives think of the country’s welfare any more than liberals. “More” isn’t the way to quantify it. “Primary” is more apt. Conservative’s primary motive, when evaluating immigration, is, “Is the immigration of (X group of people) good for the country?” Quite often, their answer is no, unless, as some have suggested, it involves skimming off the “cream of the crop” of other countries. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/76 "2017-05-08T22:22:51Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Many people living in America now, their relatives were here over a century, and fought in various wars that have carved out the very existence of America. Shouldn’t they, as descendents of the people who created this place, get some preference I should get a preference because of my fortuitous selection of ancestors? Truth be told, I already have, in many ways. Just not in any way that’s legally enshrined. Why should I get an official advantage as well? ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/77 "2017-05-08T22:25:18Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Truth be told, I already have, in many ways. Just not in any way that’s legally enshrined. Why should I get an official advantage as well? Because the very nation who’s government is responsible for all these actions _would not exist_ if it were not for the actions of millions of our ancestors working their asses off, inventing the best technology base the world has ever seen, and yes, bleeding for it, sometimes to death. Also, most _other_ countries put their native citizens first for everything, why should ours be different? This includes most European countries. Go look at the onerous official immigration requirements for one. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/78 "2017-05-08T22:25:43Z")
Too late to edit: Sorry, **RickJay** , my comment came across as snippier than intended. But I certainly didn’t sense that the argument for accepting refugees was, “Think of all the businesses they’ll start!” It was, “The refugees are fleeing war, they need a home.” ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/79 "2017-05-08T22:31:05Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > That certainly wasn’t the impression I got. This sure sounds like the very picture of a strawman argument. You didn’t get the impression that liberals who wanted the US to take in more refugees were wanting that because it would help the refugees? What, did you think liberals wanted to let them in for food or hunting or something? I’m trying to come up with alternatives, if that description was a straw man. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/80 "2017-05-08T23:01:31Z")
Conservatives who think liberals don’t argue that immigration is in the national interest are blindered. Indeed, they’re missing posts in this very thread from prior to that argument being made. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=5)