# Limitless unrestricted immigration : How can you defend this 'liberal' viewpoint? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 8, 2017, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120 "2017-05-08T12:49:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/81 "2017-05-08T23:05:55Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Conservatives who think liberals don’t argue that immigration is in the national interest are blindered. Indeed, they’re missing posts in this very thread from prior to that argument being made. The argument wasn’t, “liberals don’t argue that immigration is in the national interest”. It was, “liberals argue that immigration is in immigrants’ interest.” Those two things aren’t contradictory. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/82 "2017-05-08T23:09:22Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The argument wasn’t, “liberals don’t argue that immigration is in the national interest”. > > It was, “liberals argue that immigration is in immigrants’ interest.” > > Those two things aren’t contradictory. If that’s the argument, what’s the point? Were you trying to prove that liberals are better at thinking about this issue? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/83 "2017-05-08T23:11:48Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The argument wasn’t, “liberals don’t argue that immigration is in the national interest”. > > It was, “liberals argue that immigration is in immigrants’ interest.” > > Those two things aren’t contradictory. You argued that conservatives use one and liberals use the other. That’s wrong – liberals use both arguments. As they should, since they’re both true. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/84 "2017-05-08T23:22:49Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > You argued that conservatives use one and liberals use the other. That’s wrong – liberals use both arguments. As they should, since they’re both true. Not what I said. I said “more likely to use [one type of argument].” ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/85 "2017-05-08T23:23:45Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Not what I said. > > I said “more likely to use [one type of argument].” I still object to that – liberals make both arguments. I contend they (we) argue for the welfare of the country just as often as conservatives. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/86 "2017-05-08T23:36:24Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > … > > Have you ever even been 16 in a state like Texas, where all the employers give you the run around and all the jobs at the entry level are taken by illegals? This sounds like the kind of bullshit my parents pulled then, refusing to pay for me taking the SAT unless I got a job, and of course I had a great deal of difficulty getting one as basically a shiftless teenager without experience. I don’t blame employers for choosing the better candidate - a hard working Mexican is clearly the right choice - but those folks shouldn’t have even _been_ in the labor pool. And of course, once I did get a job, the restaurant kitchen sounded like we were in Mexico. I was the majority, in a country that my grandparents had fought for, my dad barely dodged the draft with an exemption, and I myself eventually served in the military. > > What exactly did the illegals do? Why should I have had to compete with them for jobs, or learn Spanish or be left out? Da fuq. > > As for genetics, fine, let’s say it’s just culture. Mexico is a corrupt shithole. Let in limitless Mexicans - legal or illegal - and maybe this country will become a corrupt shithole as well. Well, more than it already is. So, you hate Mexicans because you resent your parents. Alas, I took Latin in High School; it did help when I finally got around to learning Spanish. Did you also pick the wrong language? I hope your military service enabled you to improve your education. Doesn’t seem like it, though… One grandfather was in the Navy before WW1 & received an injury that made him unable to serve in that war. The other grandfather was an immigrant–and a family man on the police force by the time WW1 rolled around. His son–my father–served in WW2, started a family, then was called back for the Cold War & died. None of which is relevant to my resume. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/87 "2017-05-08T23:38:49Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > MEXICANS. As you said, the legal ones are screwed because the illegal ones are not prevented from entering. Oh, that’s what you mean. You’re wrong. There’s no legal connection between the quota set for legal Mexican immigration and the amount of illegal Mexican immigration. The legal immigration system allows for a total of 675,000 immigrants per year. No more than seven percent can come from any one country. This means the upper limit for any country is 47,250 legal immigrants. American immigration law says that there are priorities on deciding who can immigrate. The first priority goes to people who have a family member who is an American citizen (spouse, parent, child, or sibling). The second priority is employment based. This lets you in if you’re a corporate executive, doctor, engineer, millionaire, athlete, actor, model, etc. Or if you’re an employee of the American government or an American religious organization in your native country. Only after all the applicants from these two categories have been filled are openings for other people considered. And with Mexicans, that never happens. The Mexican limit of 47,250 is always filled from the first two categories so nobody who doesn’t fit in those two categories is allowed to legally immigrate. Which means, as I wrote earlier, that an average Mexican cannot legally immigrate to the United States. But there is no special category for criminals. Nobody loses a spot because that spot was given to a criminal. That’s true even if you’re including illegal immigrants as criminals. Illegal immigrants are not counted when the national limits are set. The only connection between legal immigration and illegal immigration is that the absence of the former encourages the latter. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/88 "2017-05-08T23:46:35Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Do you not even grasp the _concept_ of there being vicious competition for jobs and space to live in? According to you, these immigrants are uneducated criminals who don’t understand American culture. How exactly are they vicious competition for jobs? Do you feel a lot of businesses are looking for employees with the qualifications you described? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2017, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/89 "2017-05-08T23:50:05Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think there is a big fundamental difference in underlying motive: > > Conservatives are more likely to think,\* “Does immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”\* > > Liberals are more likely to think, _“Does immigration of [people group X] benefit [people group X]?”_ I think it’s more a case of: Conservatives are more likely to think,\* “Do my gut feelings tell me immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”\* Liberals are more likely to think, _“Do the facts tell me immigration of [people group X] benefit the country?”_ ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/90 "2017-05-09T00:18:10Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > It’s silly. It’s racist and silly. That’s the OP in a nutshell. The post, not the poster. I reserve judgment on that. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/91 "2017-05-09T00:34:44Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > And teenagers have high unemployment because they’re competing with adults raising families now. Used to be there were a lot of jobs that were _just_ for teenagers, because older people had better employment prospects. Not anymore. And it isn’t the poor migrant workers picking strawberries that caused that problem. It’s automation, basically, and to a certain extent, the decline of unions. If there aren’t enough good job prospects for the people already here, how would letting even more people into the country be _better_ for anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/92 "2017-05-09T00:39:48Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > If there aren’t enough good job prospects for the people already here, how would letting even more people into the country be _better_ for anyone? Because jobs aren’t like coal found in the ground, fixed in amount until more dinosaurs die. They are created. Often by immigrants. As I noted earlier, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or people with immigrant parents, which is much higher than their overall percentage of the population. Immigrants also tend to be working age, and support an increasingly elderly non immigrant population through taxes and economic productivity. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/93 "2017-05-09T01:24:40Z")
Open borders is not only a dream of liberals, but also libertarians, ancaps, and some business conservatives. Hard to be for free trade of capital and goods but not the free movement of labor. Imagine if American states treated other states like they were other countries. The economy would implode. Erase the imaginary national borders, watch the world’s GDP skyrocket, and the threat of war decline as people become ever more interconnected. That’s the idea, anyway. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/94 "2017-05-09T06:34:28Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > Or maybe I was referring to, I dunno, a cesspool of poverty, violence, and disease that is nearly all of Africa. And your actual experience with Africa would be…? > [@](#): > > The fact that black people live there is beside the point. Sure, buddy. Whatever you say 😉 > [@](#): > > And I even explicitly mentioned Asians, model minority that they are :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/95 "2017-05-09T09:48:02Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > According to you, these immigrants are uneducated criminals who don’t understand American culture. How exactly are they vicious competition for jobs? Do you feel a lot of businesses are looking for employees with the qualifications you described? He seems to be saying that he is frustrated because businesses have preferred hiring uneducated criminals who don’t speak English to hiring him. The conclusions that follow from that may not be suitable for discussion in this forum. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_White\_Dope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/22d042/32.png) [@Great\_White\_Dope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_White_Dope)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/96 "2017-05-09T09:58:11Z")
At what point does being opposed to mass immigration go from racism, as liberals now call it, to being reasonable, and more importantly, why? ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/97 "2017-05-09T10:42:30Z")
> [@Great\_White\_Dope](#): > > At what point does being opposed to mass immigration go from racism, as liberals now call it, to being reasonable, and more importantly, why? It rarely goes in that direction, but in theory that point is when one stops talking about which particular races and cultures are most desirable to have as immigrants and starts talking about numbers and qualifications instead. As for the “why”: it’s not that liberals call all opposition to mass immigration “racism”, it’s that some conservatives pretend that their racism is merely opposition to mass immigration. So when one drops little turds in the punchbowl like, for example, claiming that Asians are so much better than Africans, it becomes apparent that the underlying issue has little to do with immigration policy and more to do with not liking certain types of people at all for reasons which could, with some justification, be considered racist. Conversely, when one does not do this and instead focuses primarily on the historical and economic arguments, one may find oneself less frequently accused of racism. Glad to have cleared that up for you. If there are any other patently obvious concepts you require explained, please don’t hesitate to ask. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/98 "2017-05-09T10:55:38Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > If there aren’t enough good job prospects for the people already here, how would letting even more people into the country be _better_ for anyone? > [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Because jobs aren’t like coal found in the ground, fixed in amount until more dinosaurs die. They are created. Often by immigrants. As I noted earlier, 40% of Fortune 500 companies were founded by immigrants or people with immigrant parents, which is much higher than their overall percentage of the population. Immigrants also tend to be working age, and support an increasingly elderly non immigrant population through taxes and economic productivity. Uh huh. But our population is growing faster than job growth, which is a significant part of why it took so long for the jobless rate to recover despite jobs being added after the recession. Adding a bunch more people hasn’t yet created enough jobs, so when will it? Did we just not add enough people to create new jobs, in your opinion? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/99 "2017-05-09T11:03:07Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > Uh huh. But our population is growing faster than job growth, which is a significant part of why it took so long for the jobless rate to recover despite jobs being added after the recession. Adding a bunch more people hasn’t yet created enough jobs, so when will it? Did we just not add enough people to create new jobs, in your opinion? Now that you’ve learned that jobs aren’t static, I will teach you a second lesson: many variables matter in how many jobs are created. Population growt and immigration rate did not shoot up in 2007. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2017, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120/100 "2017-05-09T11:59:13Z")
> [@Great\_White\_Dope](#): > > At what point does being opposed to mass immigration go from racism, as liberals now call it, to being reasonable, and more importantly, why? When racist reasoning isn’t anywhere in evidence as an argument for it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/limitless-unrestricted-immigration-how-can-you-defend-this-liberal-viewpoint/786120.md?page=6)