# Lincoln screenwriter gets called out; getts butthurt **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [February 11, 2013, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984 "2013-02-11T16:10:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/21 "2013-02-11T18:24:05Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Texas: At least we’re not… Connecticut! > > Wow. It works! Well, that one works in reverse, too. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/22 "2013-02-11T18:27:47Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > There are plenty of sources for historical information where there is a high expectation of historical accuracy. The fact that movies don’t have such an expectation doesn’t somehow destroy those other sources. And by pointing out the inaccuracy, Connecticut increases the number of people who know the accurate information and decreases the number of who have inaccurate information. Are we really defending the spreading of ignorance… on this board? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/23 "2013-02-11T18:34:21Z")
The “15 seconds” thing is especially snotty. 15 seconds in a movie can convey a lot. If Kushner had included a scene of Mary Todd walking on on Abe being pounded in the ass by Andrew Johnson, would he be immune from criticism because it only showed three or four seconds of vigorous buggery? ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/24 "2013-02-11T18:36:57Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Are we really defending the spreading of ignorance… …in Connecticut! You guys are right. It works. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/25 "2013-02-11T18:37:23Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > And by pointing out the inaccuracy, Connecticut increases the number of people who know the accurate information and decreases the number of who have inaccurate information. Are we really defending the spreading of ignorance… on this board? What are you responding to? I said it wasn’t a “lie”. I don’t have any problem with CT pointing out that they didn’t actually vote against the amendment. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/26 "2013-02-11T18:46:22Z")
Since there is no conceivable artistic motive for changing Connecticut’s vote, I chalk it up to either laziness or inattentiveness. Were all the other votes recorded in the movie historically correct? Anyway the proper response from Kushner would have been “Oops, my bad. Sorry I missed that one. Here’s a free DVD of the movie to make it up to you.” ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/27 "2013-02-11T18:58:33Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > 15 seconds in a movie can convey a lot. …in Connecticut! > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Abe being pounded in the ass by Andrew Johnson …in Connecticut! > [@VinylTurnip](#): > > four seconds of vigorous buggery? …in Connecticut! It really does work! ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/28 "2013-02-11T19:15:36Z")
Hasn’t the movie been out in wide release for three months or so? And Courtney is only now calling attention to how his state has been maligned? I sense attention whoring on the good congressperson’s part, particularly with the Academy Awards less than two weeks away. That said, Kushner was kind of a jerk. Ina historical drama like this, it’s easy to get things right that are in the historical record, like who voted for what. The things you create are things like dialogue, or rearranging the sequence of events to increase the dramatic tension. I agree it was silly to change how a state delegation voted on the amendment, especially in a film that is being touted for all the attention to historical accuracy and realism. I saw the 60 Minutes piece, too - why was it important to have first editions of books Lincoln probably owned, or the recording of his actual watch ticking, if you were going to change how an entire state delegation voted on the issue at the crux of the film? Particularly as the change didn’t add to the tension or uncertainty that existed in reality at the time. So, Kushner did a dumb thing in changing that fact (perhaps he does have a grudge against Connecticut). He compounded the dumbness with his somewhat tactless response. The Congressman is making some crass political hay by bringing this up months after the film’s release, in close proximity to the Oscars. I say fie on both their houses. It’s too late for Kushner’s rewrite to result in a recount on the Thirteenth Amendment, so let’s enjoy the film as a very good work of historical drama, while giving the fine folks of 1865 Connecticut their justly deserved due. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/29 "2013-02-11T19:16:35Z")
> [@Icarus](#): > > It really does work! … In Connecticut! Wow, you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/30 "2013-02-11T19:23:06Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Wow, you’re right. …In Connecticut! ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/31 "2013-02-11T20:48:42Z")
> [@Doughbag](#): > > Try being German and watching movies like Inglorious Bastards… and what not… or any other NAZI related movie… and people quoting it to you later as history facts I think there’s a difference between movies like _Inglorious Basterds,_ _Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter_ and even _National Treasure_ and movies like _Lincoln_ or _JFK._ The former movies are historical fantasies. They’re set in the past, or, in the case of _National Treasure,_ contain a fantasy account of our founding fathers, but these stories aren’t meant to be based on any fact or honest interpretation of the past. Hell, _Inglorious Basterds_ has the war in Europe end early when a ragtag group of American Jews manages to fuck up the assassination plot of a European Jew to kill Hitler. I don’t expect movies based on historical events to be 100% accurate. Errors do occur after all. But what would anyone say to a movie purportedly based on historical facts that had the Governor of Alabama calling Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and encouraging his boycott? Artistic license? ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/32 "2013-02-11T20:52:32Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > Connecticut is used to being a punchline. Other than snow, leaf-peeping and the shortest distance between NYC and Bawstun, it’s not good for much else. > > Try it. Tell the lamest joke you can manage and make the punchline “Connecticut.” For extra _oomph_, deliver it in a Niles Crane voice. You’ll get that laugh every time. Oh please. New Jersey is used to being a punchline. At worst Connecticutt is ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/33 "2013-02-11T20:58:20Z")
> [@Uncle\_Jocko](#): > > The Congressman is making some crass political hay by bringing this up months after the film’s release, in close proximity to the Oscars. Maybe, just _maybe_, he didn’t see the movie until just a short time ago, and didn’t learn about the “error” until then. Sending his letter nearly three weeks before the Academy Awards doesn’t strike me as “close proximity to the Oscars”, nor would any reasonable person expect that there’d be a bounty of publicity inherent in the timing. If one wants to make a “crass hay” accusation against the ASPCA for being involved with a news story about sleazy AKC-approved dog breeders coming out _the day before_ the Westminster Kennel Club show opens, that’s a bit more defensible. ---
**Author:** ![Uncle\_Jocko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/uncle_jocko/32/2932_2.png) [@Uncle\_Jocko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncle_Jocko)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2013, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/34 "2013-02-11T21:11:22Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Maybe, just _maybe_, he didn’t see the movie until just a short time ago, and didn’t learn about the “error” until then. Sending his letter nearly three weeks before the Academy Awards doesn’t strike me as “close proximity to the Oscars”, nor would any reasonable person expect that there’d be a bounty of publicity inherent in the timing. > > If one wants to make a “crass hay” accusation against the ASPCA for being involved with a news story about sleazy AKC-approved dog breeders coming out _the day before_ the Westminster Kennel Club show opens, that’s a bit more defensible. Well, according to Kushner, at least, Courtney’s press release was titled “Before the Oscars …” so it appears the Congressman was trying to make that link. Of course, maybe Kushner changed that, too. 😉 I would be surprised if many Washington political types put off seeing _Lincoln_ until recently, but I admit it’s possible, and I’m reading a bit too much into the timing. Frankly, I’m more surprised that a factual error like this hasn’t gotten any publicity already. I’m kind of a movie buff, and I never heard of Connecticut’s vote being changed in the movie until this thread. With all the historical praise being given to _Lincoln_, one would think a blatant change to the facts like this would have gotten some attention already. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/35 "2013-02-12T05:51:01Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > What are you responding to? I said it wasn’t a “lie”. I don’t have any problem with CT pointing out that they didn’t actually vote against the amendment. You. The entire point of this thread is to say that the director is an asshole for getting mad at Connecticut for pointing out the flaw. You pulled out one of the pillars of that argument. You actually agreed with the main argument made by the asshole director. You thus by implication agreed with the rest of his argument. Art is not a license to spread misinformation. It doesn’t matter whether it was a lie. This film perpetuated false information that did not have any other purpose that might justify it. Maybe it’s not a lie, just a mistake, either in not knowing it or thinking that there was a purpose in doing so. But, either way, it’s a dumb thing to get upset about. If you can’t take factual criticism, then don’t make a biopic. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/36 "2013-02-12T07:17:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Moreover, there is not a shred of evidence that even one Democratic member of Congress changed his vote on the Thirteenth Amendment (which had previously been defeated) because of Lincoln’s actions. Donald documents that Lincoln was told that some New Jersey Democrats could possibly be persuaded to vote for the amendment “if he could persuade [Senator] Charles Sumner to drop a bill to regulate the Camden & Amboy [New Jersey] Railroad, but he declined to intervene” (emphasis added). “One New Jersey Democrat,” writes David Donald, “well known as a lobbyist for the Camden & Amboy, who had voted against the amendment in July, did abstain in the final vote, but it cannot be proved that Lincoln influenced his change” (emphasis added). Thus, according to the foremost authority on Lincoln, there is no evidence at all that Lincoln influenced even a single vote in the U.S. House of Representatives, in complete contradiction of the writings of the confessed plagiarist Doris Kearns-Goodwin and Steven Spielberg’s movie. > **[Spielberg's Upside-Down History: The Myth of Lincoln and the...](https://www.lewrockwell.com/2012/11/thomas-dilorenzo/spielbergs-upside-down-history-the-myth-of-lincoln-and-the-thirteenthamendment/)** > > by Thomas J. DiLorenzo Recently by Thomas DiLorenzo: Why the Totalitarians Among Us LoveLincoln "Armies of scholars, meticulously investigating every aspect of \[Lincoln's\] life, have failed to find a single act of racial bigotry on his part." ~ Doris... ---
**Author:** ![Agent\_Foxtrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Agent\_Foxtrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Agent_Foxtrot)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/37 "2013-02-12T14:44:17Z")
> [@NitroPress](#): > > This is the sort of fence-jumping argument used by people like Limbaugh - the audience is supposed to take the material seriously, but when it’s called on accuracy or bias, they lamely claim that “they’re just an entertainer” or “it’s just a movie.” Kushner wants it both ways - what a surprise from someone in the industry. I know I’m attacking a somewhat sacred cow here, but in fairness, Jon Stewart does the exact same thing. Both sides are equally guilty of this. - **Agent Foxtrot** , far left-of-center liberal ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/38 "2013-02-12T15:14:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Oh please. New Jersey is used to being a punchline. At worst Connecticutt is ignored. See? It works perfectly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![miss\_elizabeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/838e76/32.png) [@miss\_elizabeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/miss_elizabeth)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/39 "2013-02-12T17:34:24Z")
> [@WillFarnaby](#): > > [Spielberg's Upside-Down History: The Myth of Lincoln and the Thirteenth Amendment - LewRockwell](http://lewrockwell.com/dilorenzo/dilorenzo245.html) Well, if it’s on [LewRockwell.com](http://LewRockwell.com) you know it’s true! :rolleyes: No, wait… it’s the opposite of that. ETA: Aren’y you the same guy who’s aways defending Ron Paul, saying he isn’t racist? And you quote from Lew [Rockwell.com](http://Rockwell.com)? LOL ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2013, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984/40 "2013-02-12T17:40:35Z")
Here’s a relevant question: it seems clear to me that one main reason for the initial objection is that the Congressman feels that his home state is being “slandered,” in a sense, by this inaccuracy. The writer obviously disagrees that it’s a big deal. What’re everyone’s thoughts on this? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lincoln-screenwriter-gets-called-out-getts-butthurt/649984.md?page=3)