# Lindie England **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 28, 2005, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937 "2005-09-28T23:31:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/21 "2005-09-29T20:05:23Z")
This is a clear photograph of a soldier beating handcuffed prisoners who are lying on the floor: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iraqis\_tortured\_wp-e.jpg](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Iraqis_tortured_wp-e.jpg) Care to dismiss THAT? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/22 "2005-09-29T20:08:53Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I have no difficulty believing this at all, given the individuals involved. > > I noted before that Charles Graner, the ringleader of this sad circus, beat prisoners, doused them with pepper spray, and probably put a razor blade in a prisoner’s food. He also threatened a woman with death, threw that same woman down the stairs, and laced a fellow guard’s coffee with Mace. > > He did all of this on his own initiative, and his military superiors can hardly be blamed. After all, all of this took place long before he ever got to Iraq. These crime were committed against inmates when he was a prison guard in Pennsylvania, and against his own wife. > > Now, given all of this, do you still have trouble believing that he, and they, could have dreamed all of this up themselves? Yes, I do. So did the military investigator charged with investigating Abu Ghraib, Paul Tagliabu (sp unsure). He named various officers and CIA officers and so forth, but somehow, they remain conveniently beyond the reach of the military courts that are undoubtedly (extreme sarcasm mode) just aching to investigate them.(/extreme sarcasm mode). ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/23 "2005-09-29T21:59:09Z")
> [@](#): > > Care to dismiss THAT? - - - We have no perspective at all of what is happening in this picture–but let me tell you what _I_ see: 1. A guard is hitting some prisoners. 2. The guard is wearing latex gloves, which really aren’t real good for performing beatings, because latex is thin and tears easily. Also note that the guard is _only using his hands to beat them_. 3. The prisoners have civilian clothes on, one quite torn clothes, indicating that they were likely just-recently captured. Note the zip-tie restraints as well. 4. The **reason** the guard has latex gloves on is because he was probably searching the prisoners for weapons or contriband items. 5. The prisoners probably resisted being searched. Since it’s not real convenient to search a person sprawled on the floor, I would bet the prisoners were probably knocked to the floor after they initially resisted. 6. There do not appear to be any serious injuries to the prisoners–no visible wounds or blood, or damaged limbs. 7. There is no blood visible on the walls or floor. ~ ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/24 "2005-09-29T22:50:20Z")
I believe that the preponderance, although not all, the evidence is that Abu Ghraibists were acting on their own of thier own volition. Therefore I think England’s sentences is about right. The mitigation, given that my first sentence is correct for the sake of argument, is not that she had a baby but that as her lawyer [says](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7717755/page/2/) : \*… that the defense will present evidence during the sentencing that England has severe learning disabilities and mental problems. \* Those could have been factors to me, but I heard no further information as to the truth, severity or details of those problems ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/25 "2005-09-29T23:11:59Z")
I remember reading of a special ed. counselor or psychologist who knew England from childhood testifying that he would contiue to be aquainted with her for the rest of his life. I take that to mean he didn’t find her metally competent to live independently like most adults. I think he also testified that she was oxygen-deprived during birth, and that this left her permanently and measureably impaired. What I find somewhat incredible is, if she really was intellectually deficient, what on earth was she doing guarding prisoners in Iraq? Either she was competent and hence must bear full responsibility for her actions, or she wasn’t, and had no business being there in the first place. In such a case, the _military_ is the culpable party for putting soldiers in positions they are not qualified to be in. I worry she’s a sacrificial lamb here. I’m not convinced her superiors don’t bear the lion’s share of responsibility for what transpired in Abu Ghraib, for the very reason that, if they were not somehow aware of the abuses, they were presiding over an operation gone completely amuck. But, as it is, it looks as if jailing the grunts will be the end of the matter. ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [September 29, 2005, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/26 "2005-09-29T23:21:26Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > As I remember at the time this was going on, the rest of the world was occasionally watching videos of masked Al-Quieda members _beheading_ foreigners. Kinda puts things into perspective, doesn’t it? What’s a few Americans’ heads when 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. Puts things in perspective, huh? Seriously, the fact that the enemy is doing something worse does not make immoral actions against them OK. And for many religious people, there are fates worse than death. Being forced to do something you believe will keep you from salvation (or whatever word you want) is way worse than dying when you believe you will be saved. ---
**Author:** ![The\_New\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@The\_New\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_New_Guy)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 6:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/27 "2005-09-30T06:10:05Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > 1. The guard is wearing latex gloves, which really aren’t real good for performing beatings, because latex is thin and tears easily. Also note that the guard is _only using his hands to beat them_. Oh, he’s _only_ using his hands to beat them. Well then, by all means, let’s give him a fucking medal. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![RumMunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@RumMunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RumMunkey)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/28 "2005-09-30T13:52:28Z")
My comments in italics: 1. A guard is hitting some prisoners _(Yes, yes he is. Good thing the US went there as liberators, eh? I hope the US never has to “liberate” me!)_ 2. The guard is wearing latex gloves, which really aren’t real good for performing beatings, because latex is thin and tears easily. Also note that the guard is only using his hands to beat them. _(The guard is wearing latex gloves because it is standard operating procedure to do so when coming into ANY contact with the prisoners.)_ 3. The prisoners have civilian clothes on, one quite torn clothes, indicating that they were likely just-recently captured. Note the zip-tie restraints as well. _(Likely? If would like to debate please bring facts, not your personal speculation as to what something “likely” means)._ 4. The reason the guard has latex gloves on is because he was probably searching the prisoners for weapons or contriband items. _(re “probably”: see above)_ 5. The prisoners probably resisted being searched. Since it’s not real convenient to search a person sprawled on the floor, I would bet the prisoners were probably knocked to the floor after they initially resisted. \*(“You bet”, they were “probably” knocked to the floor while being arrested. I see. Well, “I bet” your argument is “probably” weak and littered with assumptions and uneducated guesses …“maybe”.) - 1. There do not appear to be any serious injuries to the prisoners–no visible wounds or blood, or damaged limbs. _(My local hospital would like you to come in for a job inetrview; what with your remarkable immediate medical diagnosis abilities. That, and the CIA would like to put that X-ray vision you’re using to see broken bones through skin to use.)_ 2. There is no blood visible on the walls or floor. [/quote] - (No. There is not. Not in the 3 or so square feet of visible wall, and the few square feet of floor. I guess abuse didn’t happen then. Tahnks for settign that straight)\* ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/29 "2005-09-30T15:24:36Z")
There have been several “I’m concerned about LE’s superiors getting away with it while she takes the brunt of the punishment” comments. Wasn’t her superior, also her BF Charles Granger, who I think has been put away for a decade? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [September 30, 2005, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937/30 "2005-09-30T15:56:49Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > Wasn’t her superior, also her BF Charles Granger, who I think has been put away for a decade? Given their relationship, I think we’ve got some serious chain-of-command issues from the get-go, and I’m not sure they had a “superior-subordinate” understanding any longer. She’s carrying his child, for crying out loud. Granger’s defense was that some folks higher up knew very well what was going on and encouraged it. So either he’s lying, or they’re bearing the full brunt of what should be a shared responsibility. And even if he is lying, the lack of oversight and discipline is appalling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindie-england/323937.md?page=1)