# Lindsay Graham wants a new constitutional amendment to balance budget, rein in nation's spending, make it harder to raise taxes, and harder to raise debt limit **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [January 25, 2022, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337 "2022-01-25T02:39:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/21 "2022-01-25T20:31:11Z")
All I ever have heard from them is cutting waste, or foreign aid, or benefits for “illegals” or such. If they’re serious about balancing the budget, they have to specify draconian cuts and/or massive tax increases. But why do that when their base believes that we spend so much on foreign aid or immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/22 "2022-01-25T20:46:24Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > And when there are no more taxes to cut, they’ll start demanding welfare payments. You say that like it’s not already happening. Google “corporate welfare”. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/23 "2022-01-25T20:47:47Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > > [@running\_coach](#): > > > > And when there are no more taxes to cut, they’ll start demanding welfare payments. > > You say that like it’s not already happening. > Google “corporate welfare”. - I meant payments to the rich directly. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/24 "2022-01-25T20:54:49Z")
> [@flurb](#): > > I notice though that Graham is calling for amendment via an Article V convention, which would allow 2/3 of the states to force Congress to call a convention to propose amendments. This process has never been utilized. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > It has never been utilized because nobody knows what the hell else might come out of it . . . > [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > . . . the method recommended by Graham opens up a free for all on the entire constitution . . . As a matter of fact, the process _was_ utilized exactly _once_ before, and we do know exactly what came of it. Or rather, the equivalent process was done in the days of the Articles of Confederation. They called for a Constitutional Convention to “amend” the Articles to fix some of the problems that were turning up (like the states getting into escalating tariffs and trade wars against one another, and problems with getting states to pony up the money for national defense). So what did those radical seditious delegates (whom we now commonly call the “Founding Fathers”) do? They scrapped the whole damn Articles and wrote a new defining document from scratch! They called it the “Constitution”, and with some persuasive essay-writing, got it passed. The process has never been tried since, because as **thorny\_locust** and **Buck\_Godot** point out, it opens up a free-for-all and nobody knows what could come of it. As the precedent proves, they could darn well scrap the whole thing and start from scratch again. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/25 "2022-01-25T22:28:08Z")
I’m sure when Republicans are in power they won’t reverse this and spend like crazy. You can take Lindsay Graham’s WordTM on that. ---
**Author:** ![ekedolphin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ekedolphin/32/10003_2.png) [@ekedolphin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ekedolphin)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2022, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/26 "2022-01-25T22:46:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > You can take Lindsay Graham’s WordTM on that. That and $7 will buy you a venti hot chocolate at Starbucks. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/27 "2022-01-26T11:40:58Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > If enough Republicans get elected They’ll spend every last dollar and then some, just like they always do. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/28 "2022-01-26T12:30:04Z")
this sounds like something ive seen online in places like facebook called "convention of states " > **[Convention of States Action](https://conventionofstates.com/)** > > Article V offers the only constitutional solution as big as the problem. Together, we can end federal overreach. “I support the Convention of States Project; a national effort to call a convention under Article V of the United States Constitution, restricted to proposing amendments that will impose fiscal restraints on the federal government, limit its power and jurisdiction, and impose term limits on its officials and members of Congress.” is the preamble of their “petition” ---
**Author:** ![leahcim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b4bc9f/32.png) [@leahcim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leahcim)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/29 "2022-01-26T12:38:07Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > You know what that looks like. Cut SS, Medicare, Medicaid …with current red-state recipients of these programs grandfathered in, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/30 "2022-01-26T14:04:10Z")
I think it’s worth noting which political party actually managed to balance the budget and eliminate the deficit. Then the Republicans won an election and went on a spending spree. > **[The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/)** > > Q: During the Clinton administration was the federal budget balanced? Was the federal deficit erased? A: Yes to both questions, whether you count Social Security or not. FULL ANSWER This chart, based on historical figures from the nonpartisan... ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/31 "2022-01-26T14:31:26Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > The process has never been tried since, because as **thorny\_locust** and **Buck\_Godot** point out, it opens up a free-for-all and nobody knows what could come of it. As the precedent proves, they could darn well scrap the whole thing and start from scratch again. Since the provision has never been invoked, there’s literally no precedent for how an Article V convention would work within the framework of the Constitution. It’s a complete unknown. States that have submitted applications to Congress for an Article V convention have attempted to limit the topic that the convention may address ([Oklahoma’s balanced budget amendment application as an example](http://webserver1.lsb.state.ok.us/cf_pdf/2021-22%20ENR/SRES/SJR23%20ENR.PDF)). But some legal scholars believe that the convention could not be bounded in this way. There is at least one change that an Article V convention could not make and still be operating within the authority of the Constitution – the Constitution expressly states that no amendment may deny a state it’s equal representation in the Senate without that state’s consent. ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/32 "2022-01-26T14:36:08Z")
There is absolutely no value in picking apart the intricacies of what Graham is proposing, be it balanced budget or constitutional amendment. It’s pure political point scoring and getting his face in the news and on cable tv. Many of his followers and MAGA types will, of course, eat it up and make it the wedge issue de jour. Best to ignore him. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/33 "2022-01-26T14:40:19Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > this sounds like something ive seen online in places like facebook called "convention of states " > > [https://conventionofstates.com/](https://conventionofstates.com/) > > “I support the Convention of States Project; a national effort to call a convention under Article V of the United States Constitution, restricted to proposing amendments that will impose fiscal restraints on the federal government, limit its power and jurisdiction, and impose term limits on its officials and members of Congress.” is the preamble of their “petition” What does a term limit on federal government officials mean? It sounds like a limitation on how long a civil servant can remain employed with the federal government. Who wants that and why? ---
**Author:** ![Icarus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icarus/32/72_2.png) [@Icarus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icarus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/34 "2022-01-26T14:44:50Z")
Again, he’s just engaging in the time-honored GOP tradition of makin’ sh\*t up to give Tucker something to whinge about. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/35 "2022-01-26T14:45:56Z")
I know. Like if Republicans in the Senate and the House are such big believers in term limits, they could start by not making a career out of being in Congress. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/36 "2022-01-26T16:09:10Z")
> [@nightshadea](#): > > a national effort to call a convention under Article V of the United States Constitution, restricted to proposing amendments that will impose fiscal restraints on the federal government, limit its power and jurisdiction, and impose term limits on its officials and members of Congress. I’m not at all sure that’s possible. Article V doesn’t seem to say anything about restricting what such a convention can propose. I suppose the Supreme Court would have to decide it. But what if part of what the convention wanted to propose affected the Court itself? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/37 "2022-01-26T17:08:21Z")
More likely the Court would say it’s a political question, just like it doesn’t intervene in the internal workings of Congress, or the guarantee of state republican government. The check on the convention wouldn’t be the courts, but the states who have to ratify. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/38 "2022-01-26T17:38:20Z")
What ever made you think that enacting a large enough majority’s agenda was not the defining feature of democracy? ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/39 "2022-01-26T18:31:31Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > What the hell, if enough Republicans get elected to ram through an amendment like this, why not go the whole nine yards and just ram through a amendment to eliminate the Democratic party, eliminate elections, and install themselves for life? What’s to stop them?   > [@octopus](#): > > What ever made you think that enacting a large enough majority’s agenda was not the defining feature of democracy? Did I say that? What I said (or at least strongly implied) was that I wouldn’t like it. Another defining feature of democracy, at least as we understand it, is that any government is dependent on the consent of the governed. This raises a quandary: If a large enough majority does not consent to a democratic government, can they discard democracy? It seems to be a self-nullifying argument. If Republicans gain a substantial majority by anti-democratic means, it may never be possible for any opposing majority to topple them. The very defining feature of democracy could self-obliterate. A separate rebuttal has to do with the dispute over a large majority: There is plenty of evidence that Republicans are ever-more invested in winning elections through voter suppression, intimidation, and post-election sabotage. I doubt they could ever win a sufficient “majority” this way to enact draconian Constitutional changes – that discussion is purely hypothetical, I think. That said, I think my comment should be interpreted as an implied call to action for Democrats, liberals, progressives to make sure this can never happen. If Republicans take over in the way they seem to be working towards, maybe we Americans, collectively, aren’t fit to live in a democracy after all. ---
**Author:** ![Shoeless](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shoeless/32/7099_2.png) [@Shoeless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shoeless)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2022, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337/40 "2022-01-26T18:46:03Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think it’s worth noting which political party actually managed to balance the budget and eliminate the deficit. > > Then the Republicans won an election and went on a spending spree. > > [The Budget and Deficit Under Clinton - FactCheck.org](https://www.factcheck.org/2008/02/the-budget-and-deficit-under-clinton/) Yep. Dubya campaigned on his “It’s your money, we’re going to give it back to you” promise. Which I always likened to Tim Burton’s “Batman” where the Joker promises everyone free money, just before he releases the poison gas. Once he was elected there was 9/11, and war in the Middle East, and the huge expansion of the Federal government (Homeland Security, TSA, etc), and in general spending money like the proverbial drunken sailor. Coupled of course with more tax cuts for the rich. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsay-graham-wants-a-new-constitutional-amendment-to-balance-budget-rein-in-nations-spending-make-it-harder-to-raise-taxes-and-harder-to-raise-debt-limit/958337.md?page=3)