# Lindsey Graham for president thread. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 7, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913 "2015-06-07T18:35:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/101 "2015-10-10T06:17:52Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > They went all-in in Afghanistan, too. How did that work out for them? Oh yeah, and to go back to this, part of making a superpower bog down in a third world country is aiding the rebel forces so they send Russian(or American) bodybags home. Apparently we’re not going to do that, so Russia has almost no opposition that really matters. You see, in order to WIN wars, you have to be willing to FIGHT wars, or at least aid those who will do your fighting for you. Putin is doing what he’s doing because he knows Obama is scared. We’re not even doing the minimum that we would have done during the Cold War to contest this. We’re even backing off from their fighters. Thank God Putin can’t blockade Berlin, Obama would concede Berlin to him in a heartbeat. Airlifts are “half baked ideas” and too provocative. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/102 "2015-10-10T12:46:57Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > ISIS is attacking America, and we’re putting American lives at risk. For little gain, since we aren’t doing enough to defeat them. They haven’t been attacking America, and they pose no threat to us anyway. We should watch them carefully to ensure they don’t gain that capacity, but right now they’re no threat whatsoever. Anything different right now is fear-mongering. > [@](#): > > Bombing gives them more incentive to attack us without actually doing enough damage to degrade them. And once they successfully attack the homeland, the ground troops go in. I’m not in favor of bombing them; I’m in favor of staying out, except perhaps with logistical assistance for our allies. As far as them attacking the homeland, they don’t have the capacity to do so, other than perhaps a shooting or something. And an invasion would kill a lot more Americans than a shooting. > [@](#): > > The last time this happened to us was 9/11, which was caused in part by our ridiculous containment strategy of Iraq. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/103 "2015-10-10T13:09:33Z")
The President is waging an undeclared, unapproved by Congress war against a group that poses no threat to us? If this was a Republican President you’d be calling for impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/104 "2015-10-10T13:15:40Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The President is waging an undeclared, unapproved by Congress war against a group that poses no threat to us? If this was a Republican President you’d be calling for impeachment. Good luck with that since about 75% of Republicans think the only good Muslim is a dead one. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/105 "2015-10-10T13:18:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The President is waging an undeclared, unapproved by Congress war against a group that poses no threat to us? If this was a Republican President you’d be calling for impeachment. I never called for impeachment of Bush. I’d certainly support Congress passing bills on what they think the President should do, though, especially if they advocated for staying out. I’ve said many times that Obama shouldn’t be bombing them – just that bombing is far, far superior to invading. Again, invading weakens America greatly, full stop. There’s no real-world outcome from an invasion that doesn’t greatly weaken America. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/106 "2015-10-10T13:23:05Z")
The problem is that bombing makes invasion more likely. Historically, Presidents’ ability to control the scope of a war once involved is very limited. We’re bombing. If ISIS executes a successful attack here, we can’t just say, “Well, we’ll bomb them some more.” The President’s hand will be forced. Which brings up the other problem: politics is ruling military strategy. We are in an election cycle. If ISIS pulls off a successful attack, or appears to be winning, the President’s hand will be forced again. The US can’t be seen to be losing a war in an election year. Your argument that bombing is better than invasion isn’t really saying much, since bombing increases the likelihood that a ground operation will take place. The President has increased the number of personnel in Iraq and has ordered ground raids in Syria. The only thing a President has control over for sure is whether or not to go to war. Once he’s committed, his ability to control events is much reduced. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/107 "2015-10-10T13:34:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The problem is that bombing makes invasion more likely. Historically, Presidents’ ability to control the scope of a war once involved is very limited. We’re bombing. If ISIS executes a successful attack here, we can’t just say, “Well, we’ll bomb them some more.” The President’s hand will be forced. Sounds like a good reason to stop bombing. > [@](#): > > Which brings up the other problem: politics is ruling military strategy. We are in an election cycle. If ISIS pulls off a successful attack, or appears to be winning, the President’s hand will be forced again. The US can’t be seen to be losing a war in an election year. Invasion would be “losing” any war. We invade, we lose. I don’t buy that politics would require Obama to order invasion. > [@](#): > > Your argument that bombing is better than invasion isn’t really saying much, since bombing increases the likelihood that a ground operation will take place. The President has increased the number of personnel in Iraq and has ordered ground raids in Syria. The only thing a President has control over for sure is whether or not to go to war. Once he’s committed, his ability to control events is much reduced. I suppose it raises the chances from staying out altogether, but I don’t buy the idea that he can’t withdraw. He can always withdraw – just as Bush could have. The President is the command in chief and can always say “Generals and Admirals, bring everyone home as soon as can be done safely”. When we haven’t invaded, it makes it even easier – many fewer troops and equipment to bring home. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/108 "2015-10-10T13:47:34Z")
And if it’s perceived that we lost, then the next President is a Republican. All Lindsey Graham is advocating is that the resources fit the mission. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/109 "2015-10-10T13:59:50Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And if it’s perceived that we lost, then the next President is a Republican. Possibly. So what? If the President invades to help politically, then he’s a monster. > [@](#): > > All Lindsey Graham is advocating is that the resources fit the mission. What he’s advocating for would damage and weaken America and get Americans killed. He’s advocating for a terrible thing for America. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/110 "2015-10-10T20:46:22Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Osama bin Laden [specifically cited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks#Sanctions_imposed_against_Iraq) the Iraq sanctions as one of his grievances with America. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/111 "2015-10-10T21:04:28Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > Osama bin Laden [specifically cited](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motives_for_the_September_11_attacks#Sanctions_imposed_against_Iraq) the Iraq sanctions as one of his grievances with America. Okay, point taken. Though that supports my advocacy for staying out of the region as much as possible. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/112 "2015-10-15T09:31:24Z")
Since we were on this subject in this thread, it should be noted that ground troops have been committed to Cameroon to fight Boko Haram: > **[Vox Sentences: Why the US is sending troops to Cameroon](https://www.vox.com/2015/10/14/9535109/cameroon-war-boko-haram-vox-sentences)** > > The US puts boots on the ground in Cameroon to fight Boko Haram; either Hillary Clinton or Bernie Sanders won the debate in a landslide; and a harsh winter for European refugees. Boko Haram is now affiliated with ISIS, so this is part of the broader war on terror. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/113 "2015-10-15T13:36:35Z")
Are you still working out how Obama is wrong about it? I don’t see that in your post. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/114 "2015-10-15T13:52:30Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > [Terror attack plot linked to ISIS 'is identified every fortnight', report finds | Daily Mail Online](http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3253960/Terror-attack-plot-linked-ISIS-identified-fortnight-report-finds.html) That report came from the Henry Jackson Society. It’s like citing an anti-immigration group’s study finding that immigration is bad. Double points for citing it via the _Daily Mail_. I took the liberty of looking up [the report](http://henryjacksonsociety.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/ISIS-brochure-Web.pdf) itself, and unsurprisingly, it’s sensationalism. > [@](#): > > There were 32 IS plots in the West, between July 2014 and August 2015 (an average of 2.3 a month)… > > In the majority of plots (a total of 24 cases, or 75%), there was no proof of contact with IS fighters or leaders; but the group’s ideology or propaganda was integral to each schemes’ inspiration… > > There was also one IS-directed plot (3% of the total). This took place in Belgium, January 2015, and involved fighters who had previously travelled to Iraq/Syria and had since returned to their home country to carry out an attack in the West. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/115 "2015-10-15T14:07:37Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Are you still working out how Obama is wrong about it? I don’t see that in your post. The President is absolutely right about it. Liberals just need to stop being hypocritcal about the use of force. Their criticism is notably muted when a Democrat is involved. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/116 "2015-10-15T14:21:25Z")
Hypocritical? When was the last time we were critical about the use of force? Iraq? Yeah, that was totally a double standard. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2015, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/117 "2015-10-15T15:28:46Z")
I’ll be critical of the staying-in-Afghanistan news – I’m against it. As to Boko Haram, I’m skeptical, but considering that we don’t have a history of getting mired into endless wars in that region, I’m open to being convinced that it’s the right policy. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/118 "2015-10-16T03:25:59Z")
Location has nothing to do with quagmires. We can have a quagmire in Haiti(and we once did) as easily as in Afghanistan. Boko Haram is pretty much the same threat as ISIS. But you are hitting on the politics of the issue. Africa doesn’t hold the same historical dread for Americans back home as the MIddle East or Southeast Asia, so the President can send troops there without the same risk of backlash. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/119 "2015-10-16T04:01:48Z")
Could we keep this thread focused on, y’know, Lindsey Graham? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2015, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913/120 "2015-10-16T05:00:33Z")
It is. Graham’s primary focus is on slaying dragons abroad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lindsey-graham-for-president-thread/721913.md?page=7)