# Linguistic Puzzle: "these cups need washed" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 17, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957 "2006-04-17T06:32:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/1 "2006-04-17T06:32:49Z")
Ever since I moved to central Pennsylvania, I’ve been hearing a little grammatical tick from many of my coworkers: they tend to leave out “to be” where you should normally expect to find it between two verbs (sorry, I don’t know the proper grammatical term for this part of speech). Thus, I hear: “these papers need filed” “those cups need washed” “that contract needs signed” and on and on. I had never heard this before I moved to Pennsylvania. (Scarily, I’ve been working here long enough, and hear it so often that it’s almost starting to sound correct…) I’m wondering if anyone knows the derivation of this. I have a hunch that this might be a linguistic leftover from one of the major ethnic groups that settled this region – a result of first generation immigrants using the grammatical structure of their native language with English words, then passing the mistake on to their children. (I have heard that there are communities in the mid-West that still use a slightly stilted variety of English that incorporates some aspects of German grammar.) Anyone have any idea about this? Is it just a random glitch in the local dialect, or is there some other explanation? And has anyone ever heard this in any other parts of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/2 "2006-04-17T06:50:41Z")
That doesn’t sound all that odd to me (West coast upbringing.) But I would say that it sounds a little more natural with a -ing verb. Like, "The car needs cleaning.\* Which makes me think it may come from Southern US. “Your soul needs a _spiritual_ healing!” Tt easy to drop the “a”, and from there people are just used to hearing “needs” directly connected to the verb. Perhaps. ---
**Author:** ![dnooman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dnooman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dnooman)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/3 "2006-04-17T07:27:02Z")
I noticed it when I moved to Ohio from California too. Bugs the crap out of me. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/4 "2006-04-17T09:23:06Z")
Elision/contraction: “to be” left out. “these papers need _to be_ filed” “those cups need _to be_ washed” “that contract needs \*to be \* signed” ---
**Author:** ![Myglaren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Myglaren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Myglaren)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/5 "2006-04-17T09:27:28Z")
I have noticed the same thing ocurring here (Newcastle, UK) over the past few years and it always grates. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/6 "2006-04-17T09:27:50Z")
My girlfriend has recently (past few months) started using this construction. She does customer service on the phone, so I wonder if she picked it up from her east coast customers. > [@Sage Rat](#): > > That doesn’t sound all that odd to me (West coast upbringing.) But I would say that it sounds a little more natural with a -ing verb. Right, “the car needs washing” sounds perfectly normal to me, but “the car needs washed” just grates. The former is grammatically correct, because the gerund “washing” can be used as a noun - it’s the same pattern as “the car needs oil”. The latter, AFAICT, is simply wrong. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 9:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/7 "2006-04-17T09:37:38Z")
I think I’ve read somewhere that it’s a feature of Scots English… I’ll see if I can find a cite. Also, this being GQ, referring to this dialect feature as a “glitch” isn’t right. Just because you’re unfamiliar with it doesn’t make it a mistake. Dialects vary. English speakers really shouldn’t complain about dialectal variations as much as they do, because in terms of the world’s languages, English dialects really don’t vary all that much. ---
**Author:** ![Aspidistra](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aspidistra/32/3894_2.png) [@Aspidistra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aspidistra)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/8 "2006-04-17T10:19:39Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > I think I’ve read somewhere that it’s a feature of Scots English… I’ll see if I can find a cite. Yes, I remember this from my time in Scotland - particularly from Glaswegians FWIW I think it’s kinda cute myself _shrug_ ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/9 "2006-04-17T10:50:32Z")
> [@hazel-rah](#): > > Just because you’re unfamiliar with it doesn’t make it a mistake. Dialects vary. I believe any high school English teacher would grade it as a mistake. ---
**Author:** ![sleeepy2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@sleeepy2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleeepy2)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/10 "2006-04-17T10:58:54Z")
When I read the thread title, I immediately thought “Pittsburgh”. My inlaws all talk that way, I guesss I’m used to it now. I don’t remember hearing it when I lived in State College, PA (dead center of PA), but I remember thinking it odd when I met my wife. I think they just do everything a little half-assed in Pittsburgh. (ducking!) ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/11 "2006-04-17T12:17:30Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > I believe any high school English teacher would grade it as a mistake. That’s becaused high school English teachers are in the business of preparing their students to speak, read, write, and understand a particular _prestige_ dialect of English. What the OP is asking about, on the other hand, is one feature of a dialect he has recently encountered. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/12 "2006-04-17T12:20:22Z")
p.s. My favorite Linguistics professor at my _alma mater_ (University of California at Davis) uses the following construction: > [@](#): > > Tomorrow, we will be using the XYZ text. Be sure to bring with. That construction doesn’t appear in my dialect of English nor, to the best of my knowledge, in any of the prestige dialects of English. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/13 "2006-04-17T12:21:49Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > becaused Not a dialectal variation. Merely a typo. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![liberty3701](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3d9bf3/32.png) [@liberty3701](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liberty3701)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/14 "2006-04-17T12:50:28Z")
> [@sleeepy2](#): > > When I read the thread title, I immediately thought “Pittsburgh”. Yeah, this construction is a common feature of Pittsburghese and the dialect of surrounding area. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/15 "2006-04-17T13:17:17Z")
> [@Rodgers01](#): > > “those cups need washed” The fully correct Pittsburgh version is actually “those cups need warshed”. ---
**Author:** ![davmilasav](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9bcb4/32.png) [@davmilasav](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davmilasav)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/16 "2006-04-17T13:26:25Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The fully correct Pittsburgh version is actually “those cups need warshed”. No, no. It’s, “Redd up the kitchen. Those cups need worshed.” (Help! I hear Myron Cope in my head!) I grew up in Western PA and never knew that leaving out the “to be” was an incorrect sentence construction until I got dinged on a college essay. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/17 "2006-04-17T13:46:00Z")
I grew up in PA and still find it annoying. I have heard it all my life, but I was not taught that it was correct. Sorry though, I don’t know the origin. ---
**Author:** ![jali](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecae2f/32.png) [@jali](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jali)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/18 "2006-04-17T14:10:11Z")
I’ve heard it and it really annoys me to. When I lived in Virginia shopping for food was known as “making groceries”. I found myself saying it too after a couple of years. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/19 "2006-04-17T17:18:41Z")
Yes, let me exonerate the East Coast as the originator of this particular little horror. I was told about it (with equal shock and awe) by a Massachesetts native who had gone to college in Pittsburgh. So I know it as a Pittsburgh construct, which is odd, because in most ways, the Pittsburgh working class accent strongly resembles the Trenton working class accent, and I generally assumed it was roughly the same bunch of immigrants - Italian and Eastern European. I wondered if it might not come from German, because I understand that western PA and Ohio were much more heavily settled by Germans than was New Jersey (although NJ had a high concentration of Dutch early on). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2006, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957/20 "2006-04-17T17:34:32Z")
Actually, that should be, “these cups need worshed.” 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistic-puzzle-these-cups-need-washed/352957.md?page=2)