# Linguistics - is there a supreme language? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 19, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068 "2003-12-19T23:19:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/21 "2003-12-20T21:22:30Z")
Of course I can agree to that, **hansel.** I would also be willing to agree on a system whereby we tax _just the right amount_ to pay for necessary programs without paying for unnecessary ones. The trick is, we don’t know if such a thing can ever be done (or if it already has and we just don’t know it). That’s more a debate, though, on whether such a superior language is possible in theory. The OP asks which existing language is demonstrably superior, and before we can do that, shouldn’t we define the desired conditions for superiority? FISH ---
**Author:** ![Nunavut\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e95f7d/32.png) [@Nunavut\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunavut_Boy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/22 "2003-12-20T21:57:55Z")
I speak both french and english fluently. Do I think any different when I’m in french mode or english mode? that’s really hard to say. When I am speaking french, I am also thinking in french. However, this does not seem to change the WAY I think. I think. I seem to start thinking somewhat differently when I’m immersed in a different culture for a while (more than 3 months, say). So, how much does a language contribute to the way a culture evolves? ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/23 "2003-12-20T22:25:35Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Fish \* > \*\* The OP asks which existing language is demonstrably superior, and before we can do that, shouldn’t we define the desired conditions for superiority?_\* I thought I was: sufficient flexibility to achieve both virtues of Quine’s: conciseness and expressiveness. One gains the former by being willing to borrow liberally from other languages (so that you gather words as needed); one gains the latter by being very accepting of neologisms, metaphors, and constructed words. On that score, French has a major mark against it, while English and Japanese don’t: With the Academie Francais (and the Office de la Langue Francais in Quebec), French speakers are actively trying to prevent the pollution of their language by refusing to borrow words from other languages, even from English. We say “email”, they say “courriel electronique”. The cost of a pure language is to skew it towards the minimalist vocabulary/maximalist construction end of the spectrum, which leads to a poverty of vocabulary and a dearth of conciseness. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/24 "2003-12-20T22:42:14Z")
> [@](#): > > All things considered, all languages are equally capable of expressing anything. That’s just the way it is… Yeah, sure thing **hazel-rah** , and I’d like to teach the world to sing and buy myself a coke. Language is simply a function of cultural needs. Some cultures are primitive and some are modern. The reason that some cultures are modern is in no small part because their method of information exchange was superior to other language groups. More exacting, for example, or maybe just that the dynamics of their language were such that the number of speakers reached a minimum mass that made further expansion possiable. No matter, all languages are not equal. For example ask a physicist to explain quantum theory in english. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/25 "2003-12-20T22:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*For example ask a physicist to explain quantum theory in english. Good luck. \*\* In what language is physics courses in North America typically taught? Elbonian? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/26 "2003-12-20T22:54:25Z")
“The French don’t care what they _do_, actually, as long as they pronounce it properly…” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/27 "2003-12-20T22:56:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > \*\*In what language is physics courses in North America typically taught? Elbonian? \*\* It’s amazing how much room there is in there, that he has such a seemingly endless supply of arguments to pull out of it… ---
**Author:** ![mascaroni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/dc4da7/32.png) [@mascaroni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mascaroni)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/28 "2003-12-20T23:16:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by hazel-rah \* > \*\* > The argument that English has the most words is a little self-serving. English has the most words because it has borrowed the most words from other languages. Yet when other languages borrow from English, this is somehow considered cheating or taken as proof of the superiority of English. You can’t have it both ways._\* The English language has relatively few words of Anglo Saxon origin. We have assimilated words of Latin, Greek, German, French, Indian and numerous other languages. It may not be the best language in the world, but it is the dominant one - mainly due to the fact that Americans use it. Betamax was considered better than VHS… Apple is considered better than Microsoft… Wait until Chinese becomes the world’s dominant language… that’ll give you something to moan about. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/29 "2003-12-21T00:06:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > Language is simply a function of cultural needs. Some cultures are primitive and some are modern. The reason that some cultures are modern is in no small part because their method of information exchange was superior to other language groups. More exacting, for example, or maybe just that the dynamics of their language were such that the number of speakers reached a minimum mass that made further expansion possiable. \*\* ‘Expansion’ of languages does not equate with complexity or power of communication. Many SE Asian languages have (and in many cases sadly _had_) whole vocabularies which could describe the natural habitat of that part of the world far better than Western biologists have. A society develops a method of exchange which suits the necessities of life - the language does not create the society. ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/30 "2003-12-21T00:07:26Z")
> [@](#): > > **Milum** : Language is simply a function of cultural needs. Some cultures are primitive and some are modern. The reason that some cultures are modern is in no small part because their method of information exchange was superior to other language groups. More exacting, for example, or maybe just that the dynamics of their language were such that the number of speakers reached a minimum mass that made further expansion possiable. Read up on a few languages spoken by primitive cultures and get back to me. Your theory predicts essentially the exact opposite of what we find to be true about the world’s languages. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/31 "2003-12-21T01:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Read up on a few languages spoken by primitive cultures and get back to me. Your theory predicts essentially the exact opposite of what we find to be true about the world’s languages. Just curious **hazel-rah** , who is this "we’ that finds things to be true about language? Ok gang, once more, slowly… Words have no absolute meaning, they only direct the actions of men towards group behavior that serves to perpetuate that particular language group through time. Get it? No? Oh, I see. Your own language hasn’t framed this thought construction into words that will readily integrate into your culture’s collective belief system. Ok, just think about this question… Did not language evolve as all other traits evolved – to effect the continuance of the in-breeding species? Or maybe free-wheeling evolution saw fit to evolve human language in order to make the world noisy just for kicks. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/32 "2003-12-21T02:14:32Z")
Nope, sorry. Still can’t make sense of it. Please dumb it down and try again, Milum. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/33 "2003-12-21T03:01:38Z")
The ancestral languages had staggering gramatical complexity. Proto-Indo-European had three genders for nouns, pronouns, and adjectives, and eight cases for the noun, agreement between adjective and noun, an elaborate verb system, etc. etc. Even a younger language like Sanskrit is in many ways much more complex than its modern day descendants. In Sanskirt nouns have three genders, three numbers, and eight cases; six verb tenses that can be expressed in six moods; active, middle and passive voices; compounds, participles, and verbal nouns…on and on. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/34 "2003-12-21T03:39:20Z")
OK **hansel** here is an parallel rendering that might bring about an “Ah Ha!” You are a young howler monkey. Howler monkeys have a vocabulary of about sixteen words. You are in a tree. You see a lion on the ground and you scream the scream that means “lion”. All hell breaks loose, thirty howler monkeys scamper up the tree. A short time passes. The head howler monkey comes over and boxes your ears. You learn a valuable lesson. Howler monkeys don’t have a generic term for “lion” they have a term for " danger on the ground", the lion you saw was simply walking towards a nearby waterhole, and so the pack scampered unnecessarily. Later, the young howler monkey sees a snake slinking up the tree, but he doesn’t howl the scream for “snake” because the snake did not seem to be acting agressively. Soon after, unfortunately, the snake ate the young monkey. The point to this story is that the language of the howler monkeys, was and is, primitive. These monkeys don’t extract entities from the enviorment unless that particular entity has a direct bearing on their continuing existence. Their transfer of information by sounds merely serve to signal danger, and therfore their language is primitive, and is therefore, to an extent, ineffective. \*\* WORDS HAVE NO ULTIMATE MEANING, WORDS ONLY HAVE FUNCTION\*\* And alas, our language is little more than this. ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/35 "2003-12-21T04:39:47Z")
You’re saying something that’s either stunningly obvious, or stunningly obscure, and I honestly can’t decide which. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/36 "2003-12-21T04:56:24Z")
It stunningly meaningless, actually. We’re not howler monkeys. Neither are we crows, lions or oak trees. Communication methods used by non-humans aren’t directly comparable to methods used by humans. Our favorite ignorance-spreader ignored **pravnik** ’s factual post immediately before his howler monkey fable, apparently. Truly primitive languages are hideously complex. Multitudes of conjugations, cases, tenses, numbers, genders, voices and moods. Sanskrit is quite possibly the oldest language we have a detailed grammatical literature for, and it’s simply a mess by the standards of modern European languages. Even ancient Greek and Latin were much more complex than modern English, French or Spanish (or modern Greek and Italian, for that matter). **Milum** is just beating his simplistic (or simpleton, perhaps?) drum again. Opinion as fact does not work here… ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/37 "2003-12-21T04:57:32Z")
“It\*\*'s\*\*”… _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![hazel-rah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/73ab20/32.png) [@hazel-rah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hazel-rah)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/38 "2003-12-21T05:11:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **Milum** : Just curious hazel-rah, who is this "we’ that finds things to be true about language? Sorry… I’m a linguist. ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/39 "2003-12-21T12:10:24Z")
Milum: Just curious hazel-rah, who is this "we’ that finds things to be true about language? hazel-rah: Sorry… I’m a linguist. Milum: Isn’t everybody? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linguistics-is-there-a-supreme-language/220068/40 "2003-12-21T12:25:44Z")
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