# Linquistics Question: How Did "D" Become "Th" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 1, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815 "2010-08-01T19:54:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/1 "2010-08-01T19:54:46Z")
In German, the letter d figures in words like “denken” (to think). How did this sound become the (English) “th” sound? Theese consonental sounds are totally different-it seems strnge that english is so different. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/2 "2010-08-01T20:03:54Z")
[Grimm’s Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law) And yes, that’s one of the Brothers Grimm. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/3 "2010-08-01T20:44:26Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > In German, the letter d figures in words like “denken” (to think). How did this sound become the (English) “th” sound? > Theese consonental sounds are totally different-it seems strnge that english is so different. They aren’t all that different. Notice what your tongue and lips do when you make a “d”, “t” or “th” sound. Now compare that with a “g” or “p” sound. That is different. ---
**Author:** ![Asympotically\_fat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47c2d/32.png) [@Asympotically\_fat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asympotically_fat)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/4 "2010-08-01T20:58:03Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > [Grimm’s Law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm's_law) > > And yes, that’s one of the Brothers Grimm. Ages since I read about such things, but your link describes a shift that took place between proto-Indo European and proto-Germanic which means the shift (barring the fact that such shifts are never exact laws) should affect English and German equally. I think it must be a result of the High German consonants hift which took place after English and German had split > **[High German consonant shift](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift)** > > In historical linguistics, the High German consonant shift or second Germanic consonant shift is a phonological development (sound change) that took place in the southern parts of the West Germanic dialect continuum. The shift is used to distinguish High German from other continental West Germanic languages, namely Low Franconian (including standard Dutch) and Low German, which experienced no shift. The shift resulted in the affrication or spirantization of the West Germanic voiceless stop conson... ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/5 "2010-08-01T21:01:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > They aren’t all that different. Notice what your tongue and lips do when you make a “d”, “t” or “th” sound. Now compare that with a “g” or “p” sound. That is different. Thay’s what I was going to say - I don’t find them very different - OK, the soft ‘th’ at the end of _with_ and the beginning of _thistle_ isn’t much like a D, but there’s a hard ‘th’ at the start of _the, this, that, thanks_, etc. that is almost indistinguishable from a D in some English dialects/accents (I’m thinking Dublin Irish and New York Italian, for example) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2010, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/6 "2010-08-01T21:37:30Z")
Check out [the chart on this wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consonant) to see how consonants are categorized,a note that "d, “t” and “th” are quite close. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/7 "2010-08-02T05:39:27Z")
D is quite a lot like Th in Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/8 "2010-08-02T05:54:54Z")
To simplify, the difference between [d] and [θ] is in how far forward you move the tip of your tongue. [d] is on the alveolar ridge, while [θ] is on the edge of the teeth. ---
**Author:** ![TorpedoTed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/da6949/32.png) [@TorpedoTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TorpedoTed)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2010, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/9 "2010-08-02T06:35:17Z")
Simply put, it didn’t–“th” turned to “d”. Due to the fact that English and German are both called “Germanic” languages, t’s a common misconception that modern German is somehow the original and English a deviation therefrom (for what it’s worth, the adjectives “German” and “Germanic” are quite distinct in the German language, the first being “deutsch” and the second “germanisch”). Both, however, are in fact offshoots of the older [Proto-Germanic](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language). And while modern High German indeed retains some features of this language which English has lost (for example the case system, though even this has been greatly simplified over the centuries), it also developed in its own distinct ways (the High Germanic sound shift article **These are my own pants** links to shows some examples in terms of pronunciation), and English has likewise retained some elements of Proto-Germanic which German has lost. One of these is the “th” sound–originally a common sound in Proto-Germanic, but now lost (usually changed to “d”) in all of its descendants except for English and Icelandic (I’m not sure whether the soft d in Danish is a remnant of this sound, or a later development of the hard d sound). Incidentally, if you’re looking for a Germanic language which most closely resembles the older forms, Icelandic would be it. This language, too, has not remained unchanged over the centuries, but due to its relative isolation, it still retains much of the grammar and vocabulary of Old Norse, and it has made a deliberate attempt to avoid loan words, instead constructing words for new concepts from existing Icelandic building blocks. It should be noted, however, that this is a North Germanic language, whereas English and German are West Germanic (the split having occurred at at time before we have any real written evidence), but it’s still the closest living equivalent to the older forms of the Germanic languages. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/10 "2010-08-03T05:37:23Z")
> [@TorpedoTed](#): > > it has made a deliberate attempt to avoid loan words, instead constructing words for new concepts from existing Icelandic building blocks Some of which are marvellous, such as the word for “computer” which etymologically basically means “number-prophetess.” ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2010, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/11 "2010-08-03T13:11:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Thay’s what I was going to say - I don’t find them very different - OK, the soft ‘th’ at the end of _with_ and the beginning of _thistle_ isn’t much like a D, but there’s a hard ‘th’ at the start of _the, this, that, thanks_, etc. that is almost indistinguishable from a D in some English dialects/accents (I’m thinking Dublin Irish and New York Italian, for example) That would be voiceless and voiced, for those who are confused by wtf hard and soft might mean. I say “with” with the voiced dental fricative. > [@BigT](#): > > To simplify, the difference between [d] and [θ] is in how far forward you move the tip of your tongue. [d] is on the alveolar ridge, while [θ] is on the edge of the teeth. That, and [d] is a stop and [θ] and [ð] are fricatives. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/12 "2010-08-04T04:34:06Z")
> [@Ruken](#): > > That, and [d] is a stop and [θ] and [ð] are fricatives. Well, yes. But I find that the fricative is automatic against the teeth, as it is difficult to completely close off the air supply in that location with just the tip of the tongue. And to produce the voiced alveolar fricative, the tongue does not actually touch the alveloar ridge, while the voiced dental fricative does touch the teeth. You did catch me on using the wrong symbol, however. I was referring to the voiced dental plosive [ð], not the unvoiced one [θ]. I feel pretty stupid for mixing those up. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/13 "2010-08-04T10:39:25Z")
I’d like to know how ‘t’ became ‘d’ for some of Americans. And ‘p’ became ‘b’. A friend of mine reported that he could not get someone to understand the word ‘operator’ until he pronounced it ‘ubarader’ at which point he was immediately understood and asked, tetchily, why he ‘couldn’t talk English in the first place’. It must have been his English accent that compounded the difficulty his listener was having because a lot of Americans pronounce 't’s and 'p’s the standard English way and, presumably, don’t have problems making themselves understood. In England itself, it’s quite common for vowel sounds to vary, sometimes quite dramatically, from region to region, but consonants less so. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/14 "2010-08-04T11:04:50Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > I’d like to know how ‘t’ became ‘d’ for some of Americans. And ‘p’ became ‘b’. > > A friend of mine reported that he could not get someone to understand the word ‘operator’ until he pronounced it ‘ubarader’ at which point he was immediately understood and asked, tetchily, why he ‘couldn’t talk English in the first place’. > > It must have been his English accent that compounded the difficulty his listener was having because a lot of Americans pronounce 't’s and 'p’s the standard English way and, presumably, don’t have problems making themselves understood. > > In England itself, it’s quite common for vowel sounds to vary, sometimes quite dramatically, from region to region, but consonants less so. Was this person from the NYC / Long Island / north New Jersey area? I’ve heard that a little bit coming from there, but even those people are an exception. Some lake state accents might sound like this too. “Ubarader” is not totally unheard of, but it is not common in any area that I’m aware of. Where I grew up, NO ONE can pronounce the word “specific.” It’s universally “pacific.” Even if you try to correct them, they say \*spa-spa-spa—\*pacific. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 11:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/15 "2010-08-04T11:12:53Z")
Having just watched a couple of seasons of Dr. Who, I would add that ‘th’ seems to be becoming ‘f’, at least for Rose Tyler, who spends a lot of time ‘finking’ about ‘fings’. ---
**Author:** ![qpw3141](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/6bbea6/32.png) [@qpw3141](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/qpw3141)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/16 "2010-08-04T11:33:56Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > Having just watched a couple of seasons of Dr. Who, I would add that ‘th’ seems to be becoming ‘f’, at least for Rose Tyler, who spends a lot of time ‘finking’ about ‘fings’. That’s been common in certain areas of London for decades, if not centuries. A lot of children find making the ‘th’ sound more difficult so substitute the ‘f’. Most parents try and correct this - or the child does it naturally by copying its peer group but in some places it seems to have taken hold amongst adults and so is now self-perpetuating. It’s the sort of thing that drives teachers to despair! ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/17 "2010-08-04T18:18:42Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > A lot of children find making the ‘th’ sound more difficult so substitute the ‘f’. Most parents try and correct this - or the child does it naturally by copying its peer group but in some places it seems to have taken hold amongst adults and so is now self-perpetuating. > > It’s the sort of thing that drives teachers to despair! It would drive me thucking crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/18 "2010-08-04T18:54:24Z")
> [@qpw3141](#): > > I’d like to know how ‘t’ became ‘d’ for some of Americans. And ‘p’ became ‘b’. > > A friend of mine reported that he could not get someone to understand the word ‘operator’ until he pronounced it ‘ubarader’ at which point he was immediately understood and asked, tetchily, why he ‘couldn’t talk English in the first place’. > > It must have been his English accent that compounded the difficulty his listener was having because a lot of Americans pronounce 't’s and 'p’s the standard English way and, presumably, don’t have problems making themselves understood. > > In England itself, it’s quite common for vowel sounds to vary, sometimes quite dramatically, from region to region, but consonants less so. I have no idea what you’re talking about with /p/ and /b/. What you consider /t/ becoming /d/ is actually both becoming a voiced alveolar flap intervocalically (because it is voiced, it sounds closer to /d/ than /t/, hence your perception). Complain about it if you like, but you guys are the ones who can’t manage to pronounce post-vocalic /r/ (nor avoid sticking superfluous ones in intervocalically), so… [Accent chauvinism is silly] ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/19 "2010-08-04T19:02:01Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > [Accent chauvinism is silly] Thank Christ that, as a west-coast American, I don’t have an accent! I have a lot of sympathy for the people who do. ---
**Author:** ![Indistinguishable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/90ced4/32.png) [@Indistinguishable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Indistinguishable)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815/20 "2010-08-04T19:03:17Z")
It is a heavy burden to carry. I only hope science one day finds the cure. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/linquistics-question-how-did-d-become-th/548815.md?page=2)