# Lions: 35 -- Disobedient Senators -- 0 **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234 "2000-09-14T20:49:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2000, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/1 "2000-09-14T20:49:23Z")
I’ve just read “I, Claudius” for the first time. Yes, I saw the series (three times), and a good thing, too, or I would never have been able to keep all the Drususes, Julias, and Tiberiuses apart. It was a terrific read. My question: I know that the book is partially fictionalized, but did the Emperors Caligula and Tiberius even approach being as bloodthirsty as they were represented? If so, how could they exterminate so many citizens without the population getting fed up and rising against them? I’ll do some of my own 'net research, but you guys are better sources than anything on the 'net. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2000, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/2 "2000-09-14T22:11:06Z")
Well, Tiberius I wasn’t nearly as bad as represented (Tacitus had more interest in scandalous gossip than in writing a serious history – if he were alive today, he’d probably be working for the National Enquirer). He was, it seems, a dour[sup]1[/sup], reasonably honest, rather gauche, middle-aged[sup]2[/sup] man. It should be remembered that his adoptive father/stepfather/father-in-law[sup]3[/sup] Augustus was a consummate hypocrite…err, politician, whose iron-fisted military rule was masked, for the last forty years of his life, by his pretense that he was just this regular, albeit talented, guy who the Republic kept loading with tasks (and powers). Nobody had the nerve to point out that the Emperor (heh, heh) had no clothes. The contrast between Augustus and Tiberius was a little too much to be stomached. As for Caligula (Gaius, as he was known to contemporaries)…yes, he really _was_ that bad (although the story about him appointing his horse consul seems to be a fabrication). It should be remembered, though, that his atrocities were all committed against the Roman senatorial nobility (_optimates_), and that Joe Sixpack (or L. Flavius Amphora) in the provinces didn’t give a rat’s ass about what _optimates_ did to each other. (And Caligula _did_ end up being assassinated, after a reign of four years.) [sup]1[/sup]Not without reason [sup]2[/sup]_i.e._, too old to be cute and too young to be grandfatherly. [sup]3[/sup]That was part of the reason for his being dour. ---
**Author:** ![Random](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/57b2e6/32.png) [@Random](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Random)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2000, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/3 "2000-09-14T22:26:45Z")
Great books, aren’t they? I assume you read/are reading the sequel _Claudius the God_. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2000, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/4 "2000-09-14T23:13:58Z")
Random: Yeah, I plan to get my hands on the sequel ASAP. Now that we’re all talking about it, wasn’t there a movie called “Caligula”? I’ll get on my movie database page and look. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2000, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/5 "2000-09-14T23:50:38Z")
Yes, Caligula, starring Malcom McDowell, with Helen Mirren and Peter O’Toole, written and directed by Bob Guccione! :eek: The name of the director says it all. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/6 "2000-09-15T00:18:47Z")
FWIW, Guccione only “directed” the hardcore sex scenes he cut in after Tinto Brass finished directing the actual film. When Guccione was done bastardizing it, just about everyone wanted their names taken off, but IIRC he won the contractual battles with everyone but Gore Vidal, who was successful in having his name removed from the credits. ---
**Author:** ![GKittridge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e274bd/32.png) [@GKittridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKittridge)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/7 "2000-09-15T03:15:30Z")
Since we’re OT anyway, let me just add that Gore Vidal did get a credit for that abomination. It read “Based on a screenplay by Gore Vidal.” ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/8 "2000-09-15T05:03:13Z")
I pretty much agree with Akatsukami. Tiberius got a bad rap, but Caligula was really that crazy. The one who got a totally undeserved reputation, though, is Livia. There’s no evidence to indicate that she offed Marcellus, Gaius, Lucius, Agrippa, and most of all, Augustus. Though I did enjoy the comment from someone that the series should have been renamed “I, Livia”. 😛 Oh, and anyone who’d compare “I, Claudius” with “Caligula” as far as quality goes, would probably compare “Midway”, “A Bridge Too Far” or “Tora, Tora, Tora” with “1941”. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/9 "2000-09-15T16:19:20Z")
Re: Caligula, the movie. I looked it up, and the movie database reviews say the same thing. It bit royally – so I won’t be renting it anytime soon. Akatsukami, you seem a scholar of ancient Rome. Did Tiberius I really turn Capri into his private orgy island? If so, if I ever visit it, I won’t be able to avoid some graphic mental images. ---
**Author:** ![Akatsukami](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ea666f/32.png) [@Akatsukami](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akatsukami)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2000, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/10 "2000-09-15T22:35:55Z")
**pugluvr** writes: > [@](#): > > Akatsukami, you seem a scholar of ancient Rome. Did Tiberius I really turn Capri into his private orgy island? Heh, thanks :o Tiberius _did_ retreat to Capri (then called “Capreae”) in, I think, 26CE (I’m away from my usual sources just now), and never returned to Rome. He did so mostly at the instigation of Sejanus, his praetorian prefect at the time, although there’s no doubt that his own preferences played a part in his going there and staying even after Sejanus’ execution. He owned the whole island, although I don’t know how he got it. Did he hold orgies there? Well, everybody that he might have orgied with has been dead for nearly two thousand years, and only his enemies left “records” of what he did there. ---
**Author:** ![DRY](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a87d85/32.png) [@DRY](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DRY)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/11 "2000-09-16T05:30:07Z")
For what it’s worth, I don’t believe Tiberius had orgies at Capri, or, if he did, they were greatly exaggerated. Tiberius was VERY unpopular in the Senate and among the people of Rome–at his death they were DELIGHTED at the prospect of Caligula being the new Emperor, and shouted “To the Tiber with Tiberius” (intending to throw his body into the river instead of according it honorable burial). They would have been all too willing to believe (or start) salacious rumors about him. Sejanus himself may have fueled these stories. It seems likely that he was planning some sort of coup to get himself installed as emperor. It was very much in his interests to blacken the reputation of the current emperor. Finally, many of the anti Tiberian stories were fueled by Tacitus, someone with a very negative opinion of Tiberius, writing years after the fact. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2000, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lions-35-disobedient-senators-0/33234/12 "2000-09-16T05:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pugluvr \* > \*\*Random: Yeah, I plan to get my hands on the sequel ASAP. Now that we’re all talking about it, wasn’t there a movie called “Caligula”? I’ll get on my movie database page and look. \*\* I was a good little girl. I didn’t even SEE pot, let alone smoke it, til I was 25. When I was 18 I saw this movie at a drunken party with a bunch of male sailor. Oh, yeah, **my** eyes were opened wide. :eek: [/]please resume your well-reasoned discourse on Roman history