# Lissener vs. his students (mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107 "2006-05-09T19:34:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/61 "2006-05-11T20:12:46Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The thing is, you could react to it without, well, _reacting_ to it. You could have said, “Have you listened to Kate Bush, Debbie Harry, Chrissie Hynde, Polly Jean Harvey? In my opinion, they’re fantastic singers. Here are a few links to snippets of their music; what do you think?” > > That would share your breadth of experience without being insulting. It would enrich the conversation. And nobody would perceive you as arrogant for making specific suggestions–on the contrary, they’d view you as a valuable resource for knowing about and recommending good female vocalists. > > Daniel You know, it really seems to me at this point that you’re not objecting to his tone, you’re objecting to his personality. Yeah, if he were Daniel, he could have said it like that, but he’s not. I’m not the President of the lissener Fan Club or anything, but I am somebody who thinks that the content of what people say actually is more important than how they say it, and if somebody can’t fucking take the truth without hand-holding, maybe that’s their problem. We’re all adults, and look at the top of the page, if you would. It’s a fragile motto, and it doesn’t accurately describe the reality a lot of the time, but it’s something worth aspiring to. When somebody says something ignorant and gets called on it, unless actual personal attacks were involved, which they were not, the caller shouldn’t get fucking Pitted for that, he should get a medal. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/62 "2006-05-11T20:18:29Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > You know, it really seems to me at this point that you’re not objecting to his tone, you’re objecting to his personality. That makes no sense at all–the only thing I know about his personality is from his tone. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/63 "2006-05-11T20:20:19Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That makes no sense at all–the only thing I know about his personality is from his tone. > > Daniel In turn that makes no sense to me. Obviously the content of his posts as well as their tone and his word choices and a bunch of other things all give you information about him. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/64 "2006-05-11T20:21:53Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > That makes no sense at all–the only thing I know about his personality is from his tone. > > Daniel Dude, you have long carried a prejudice about my personality based on more than my tone. So please, with the disingenuousness . . . although, how else would we know it was really you, come to think of it? ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/65 "2006-05-11T20:22:57Z")
> [@Lute Skywatcher](#): > > Or rather that the speaker thinks there are not many women who are great rock singers while playing an instrument. Yeah, I didn’t reread the thread to figure out which he meant. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/66 "2006-05-11T20:34:36Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The thing is, you could react to it without, well, _reacting_ to it. You could have said, “Have you listened to Kate Bush, Debbie Harry, Chrissie Hynde, Polly Jean Harvey? In my opinion, they’re fantastic singers. Here are a few links to snippets of their music; what do you think?” > > That would share your breadth of experience without being insulting. It would enrich the conversation. And nobody would perceive you as arrogant for making specific suggestions–on the contrary, they’d view you as a valuable resource for knowing about and recommending good female vocalists. > > Daniel You know what? I’m proud of my tone, in a way. I think of you, Daniel, as someone who dishonestly cloaks his anger and aggression in a false front of “reasonableness” and hypocrisy. I think of you as an \*essentially \*dishonest poster. I strive to remain honest when I post here. People don’t always agree with my opinions, there’s no question of that. But if someone makes me angry, I either don’t post, or if I do, I try to communicate to them, even if politely, that I’m angry, or offended, or whatever. I try not to be a jerk about it–which I don’t always succeed at, obviously–but I feel, honestly, that it’s only fair to be clear about where I’m coming from. I do NOT think it’s a virtue, as you do, to put a false front on the emotional component of a discussion. I try to be mature about it, but I refuse to play the passive aggressive games that, for example, you play so well, and that make you one of the posters that I most rigorously avoid engaging with, because you seem, to me, to be incapable of engaging honestly. Others’ mileage may vary, of course; I fully understand that you are a popular Doper. Precisely because you maintain an even tone. But I cannot engage with that, because I never know what clues I’m missing. I, personally, find it very frustrating to engage with you, because while I’m reacting, I hope, honestly, you are going all passive aggressive, couching your anger and aggression, so to a third party, I look like the aggressor while you’re wearing your kitten mask. Again, different styles, but I can only do it my way. If I were to try to do it you way, I would feel dishonest. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/67 "2006-05-11T20:37:36Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Dude, you have long carried a prejudice about my personality based on more than my tone. So please, with the disingenuousness . . . although, how else would we know it was really you, come to think of it? Right. Because whenever anyone disagrees with you, it’s because there’s something wrong with them. Either they’re part of the vast anti- **lissener** conspiracy, or they’re “arrogant-ignorant”, or they have some other secret hatred. No one dislikes you based on what you do yourself. You simply don’t even consider it plausible that your own behavior might be the cause of people’s responses to you. Seriously, **lissener** , if the people here are _that_ flawed, why’d you come back? Every so often, I start thinking maybe I sorta like you, **lissener**. Honest, I do. You’re smart; you’re often witty; your comments on movies are often pretty insightful. Then you do something like this: you act like a dick, and then when you get called upon it, you come back with your usual flurry of posts blaming everyone else. Kinda like **Liberal** , actually - sure, maybe many, many people here don’t like the way you speak to them. But that’s because they’re all part of numerous larger conspiracies working against you! So I guess we’re back at the cycle when I can’t stand you because I’m so disgusted with your refusal to take any sort of responsibility for how you act. Let’s not blame other people for smearing you, **lissener**. You do it perfectly well all on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/68 "2006-05-11T20:41:30Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > We’re all adults, and look at the top of the page, if you would. It’s a fragile motto, and it doesn’t accurately describe the reality a lot of the time, but it’s something worth aspiring to. When somebody says something ignorant and gets called on it, unless actual personal attacks were involved, which they were not, the caller shouldn’t get fucking Pitted for that, he should get a medal. Yeah, take a look at the motto and then look at what **lissener** said: > [@](#): > > To me this says, “There are not many women who were great singers.” THis is a baldly ignorant statement, in my opinion. This is an expression of an extremely limited worldview, and possibly indicative of very narrow experience on the subject. To say further that “Joni Mitchell, Joan Baez, Tori Amos are the few that come to mind,” emphasis added, is further indication, to me, of a limited experience of the subject. To speak so definitively, and dismissively, while indicating a narrowness of experience, is what I was reacting to. The “fighting ignorance” isn’t supposed to mean that you punch it in the face. It’s meant that when faced with ignorance, we try to supply information. There is not one single piece of information in the quote. Where’s the list of female singer/instrumentalists? Where’s any offer of further information or even refutation? It’s not there. It’s Monty Python’s Argument Sketch without the humor. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/69 "2006-05-11T20:42:13Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > The, “oh, you’re ignorant… not that there’s anything wrong with that” backpeddling to somehow make the insult ok. You’re a stupid idiot, but then again, aren’t we all? Well, here’s the problem right here. You’re equating “ignorance” with “stupidity” and neither lissener nor I had that in mind or intended that inference. I do not believe that ignorance equals stupidity. Ignorance to me is not knowing about something. Making blanket statements of fact about that something that you’re ignorant about is what we objected to. I know nothing about opera but I don’t go around saying that there aren’t any good opera singers nowadays. Could we have been more in-depth? Sure, but the thread was about Frankie Valli and it would have been a bold hijack. Could either lissener or I have used a more coddling “tone” in our responses? Possibly. I can only speak for myself in that I just didn’t have time to be less curt. If an apology is needed, then I apologise. But whatever. I mean really. I still don’t think anyone said anything that needed a pitting. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/70 "2006-05-11T20:43:07Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > So I guess we’re back at the cycle when I can’t stand you because I’m so disgusted with your refusal to take any sort of responsibility for how you act. Let’s not blame other people for smearing you, **lissener**. You do it perfectly well all on your own. that’s pretty much my feeling. Every now and then I get the delusion that **lissener** can be communicated with rationally–and then he shits out a poisonous post like that one, and I’m reminded of my mistake. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/71 "2006-05-11T20:46:04Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Could either lissener or I have used a more coddling “tone” in our responses? Possibly. I can only speak for myself in that I just didn’t have time to be less curt. If an apology is needed, then I apologise. But whatever. I mean really. I still don’t think anyone said anything that needed a pitting. The thing is, it’s not “coddling.” If you think that ignorance isn’t a problem, then that means you can treat the ignorant with respect and courtesy. If you don’t want to hijack, that’s cool–just don’t post. But if you are going to post in such a thread, your refutation only carries weight if it contains useful information, not just claims of authority and accusations of ignorance. And that refutation will be far more effective if it’s courteous and respectful. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/72 "2006-05-11T20:46:33Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > that’s pretty much my feeling. Every now and then I get the delusion that **lissener** can be communicated with rationally–and then he shits out a poisonous post like that one, and I’m reminded of my mistake. > > Daniel He really has a major tendency to go on the offensive when he feels he’s being “attacked”. Which is ironic when it’s someone like you attacking. You’re considerably less vicious than, for example, my sixteen-year-old cat, or carpet lint. For the record, I’m not real nice either, but I think having folks like you around to keep conversations from turning into nuclear warfare is a good thing; there’s nothing in your conduct that remotely suggests disingenuousness, and you’re an asset to the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/73 "2006-05-11T20:47:17Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > I know nothing about opera but I don’t go around saying that there aren’t any good opera singers nowadays. I do know a little bit about opera, and if you said it I would disagree, and I also wouldn’t care that you thought that. Just as I don’t care if someone says, “Nothing on TV is worth watching anymore.” Or “I don’t like any of the books being published.” What the bloody fuck is wrong with having an opinion, even a strong one? You two keep coming back to saying that the opinion was ignorant. Your proof? It didn’t agree with yours. There is no difference between that and saying that other people aren’t allowed to have opinions. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/74 "2006-05-11T20:47:57Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Yeah, take a look at the motto and then look at what **lissener** said: > The “fighting ignorance” isn’t supposed to mean that you punch it in the face. It’s meant that when faced with ignorance, we try to supply information. There is not one single piece of information in the quote. Where’s the list of female singer/instrumentalists? Where’s any offer of further information or even refutation? It’s not there. It’s Monty Python’s Argument Sketch without the humor. Post from lissener in that thread, that just happened to be in a different post, conveniently overlooked: > [@](#): > > Just a few of the great voices of the 20th century, without much comment except that I don’t mention them randomly; the word “great” is intentional: > > ``` > Mary Margaret O'Hara* > Ella Fitzgerald > Kate Bush > Betty Carter > Shirley Horn > Polly Jean Harvey > Eddi Reader > Doris Day > k.d. lang > Johnette Napolitano > Neko Case > Victoria Williams > Jane Siberry > Diamanda Galas > Anneli Drecker > Happy Rhodes > Anna Domino > Bjork > Amy Denio > Lisa Gerard > Katell Keinig > Stina Nordenstam > Sidsel Endreson > Holly Cole > > ``` > > –Those are just my top favorite; my first round of elmination in choosing my desert island pile. And strictly off the top of my head; I reserve the right to add more later. > > \*If I had to pick a single voice as my one favorite, it might be Mary Margaret O’Hara. And have you even heard of her, Chuck? You got to dig, dude; you can’t wait for the radio to bring your music to you. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/75 "2006-05-11T20:48:07Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Right. Because whenever anyone disagrees with you, it’s because there’s something wrong with them. Either they’re part of the vast anti- **lissener** conspiracy, or they’re “arrogant-ignorant”, or they have some other secret hatred. No one dislikes you based on what you do yourself. You simply don’t even consider it plausible that your own behavior might be the cause of people’s responses to you. Yeah, I’ve noticed this and tried mentioning it to him. It’s as if he’s pushing people away while not recognizing and/or not caring he’s doing so, ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/76 "2006-05-11T20:49:35Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > He really has a major tendency to go on the offensive when he feels he’s being “attacked”. Which is ironic when it’s someone like you attacking. You’re considerably less vicious than, for example, my sixteen-year-old cat, or carpet lint. Hey, that carpet lint can be **nasty**! Thanks for the compliment, um, I think. My favorite part of **lissener’s** post is that, after spending several paragraphs accusing me of dishonest passive-aggressiveness, he concludes with, “Different styles, but I can only do it my way.” Yeah, that’s right, all he was talking about was different styles, nothing wrong with that, right? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/77 "2006-05-11T20:49:55Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I do know a little bit about opera, and if you said it I would disagree, and I also wouldn’t care that you thought that. > > Just as I don’t care if someone says, “Nothing on TV is worth watching anymore.” Or “I don’t like any of the books being published.” > > What the bloody fuck is wrong with having an opinion, even a strong one? You two keep coming back to saying that the opinion was ignorant. Your proof? It didn’t agree with yours. There is no difference between that and saying that other people aren’t allowed to have opinions. Since you paid for me being here, you’re the last person I want to argue with, but if you believe that all opinions are equal, no matter the experience level, we are on different planets. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/78 "2006-05-11T20:51:52Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Post from lissener in that thread, that just happened to be in a different post, conveniently overlooked: I did overlook that post–that’s exactly the sort of thing that I think is very valuable in such a discussion. Specifics. Diamanda Galas may be a regrettable inclusion IMO, but it’s still a great post. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/79 "2006-05-11T20:53:00Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > Yeah, take a look at the motto and then look at what **lissener** said: > The “fighting ignorance” isn’t supposed to mean that you punch it in the face. It’s meant that when faced with ignorance, we try to supply information. There is not one single piece of information in the quote. Where’s the list of female singer/instrumentalists? Where’s any offer of further information or even refutation? It’s not there. It’s Monty Python’s Argument Sketch without the humor. The information is right there. The information is that – you know what, I’ve read lissener’s quote a whole bunch of times now and I STILL don’t see the “punch” if we’re not all in kindygarden. So frankly, I don’t want to argue about whether he supplied the information you think he should have, or whether the information he did supply is not information because it doesn’t immediately match up to your demands. And besides which, he did anyway, as Equipoise has now demonstrated. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/80 "2006-05-11T20:54:02Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Hey, that carpet lint can be **nasty**! > > Thanks for the compliment, um, I think. > > My favorite part of **lissener’s** post is that, after spending several paragraphs accusing me of dishonest passive-aggressiveness, he concludes with, “Different styles, but I can only do it my way.” Yeah, that’s right, all he was talking about was different styles, nothing wrong with that, right? > > Daniel My favorite part of this post is how fucking passive-aggressive it is to keep talking about him like he’s not right here, especially in this condescending way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107.md?page=5)