# Lissener vs. his students (mild) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 9, 2006, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107 "2006-05-09T19:34:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/101 "2006-05-11T21:31:42Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > Not just stating it, no, but I think people can come to understand better through open and direct conversation. Also I think lissener’s opinion is valid, and therefore it is valid for him to express it. You thinking it’s not efficient doesn’t make it less valid an expression. Again, you’re making no sense (and it’s pretty funny being called a tool by you, but I won’t go there). nobody’s talking about what constitutes a valid expression. We’re talking about what’s an effective expression and what’s a respectful, courteous expression. You may be constitutionally incapable of understanding courtesy or respect, so I won’t bother trying to explain the concepts to you further. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/102 "2006-05-11T21:37:15Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > But if i call someone ignorant, and spend a paragraph outlining how hopeless they are and how little they know about something and how they’re nothing but a drone who listens only to commercial radio . . . Then it’s a good thing no one did that. ---
**Author:** ![Hakuna\_Matata](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a88e4f/32.png) [@Hakuna\_Matata](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hakuna_Matata)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/103 "2006-05-11T21:43:02Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > How random. I was just composing a very pleasant reply to you thanking you for sharing your perspective as an artist in buildings in another thread, and here you come to attack me, I guess because you didn’t like what I had to say there? > > How am I exposing my ignorance? Please educate me. I mean that – and you don’t even have to be nice about it. well now the one thread I was trying to figure out your take on the tagger issue. In this thread I am just having a poke at you 😃 but if we are to tie the two threads together, we are talking about opinions–and opinions about artistic endeavors. Now would you have appreciated it in that other thread if I had called you ignorant for even liking tags? I mean I am the Architect, the supposed expert on many aesthetic things. Yet I didn’t do that. For one I was first trying to establish that we are talking the same thing. I could have told you that your world view was too narrow and you were too ignorant to understand that the taggers were ruining my great works of art. But the reality is there are few great works of art out there so I couldn’t honestly do that to you. In the thread that started this–there was and still is a big difference of opinion. For example, is music industry what is played on the airways or is it what is the larger portion that is never aired? Your take on that is going to have a huge influence on whether you believe the other side is ignorant or not. But the thing is that it is all based on opinions—and the basis of those opinions is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/104 "2006-05-11T21:48:37Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Then it’s a good thing no one did that. Well, just a matter of interpretation, right? I mean, you look at your post and see a reasonable and measured attempt to enlighten. I look at it and see something quite different. I think i’m done in this thread. My main intention in coming here in the first place was to simply give my view of the situation. I did that, but then succumbed to the temptation to keep flogging the issue, which really did nothing but waste my time and yours. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/105 "2006-05-11T21:48:41Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Again, you’re making no sense (and it’s pretty funny being called a tool by you, but I won’t go there). nobody’s talking about what constitutes a valid expression. We’re talking about what’s an effective expression and what’s a respectful, courteous expression. > > You may be constitutionally incapable of understanding courtesy or respect, so I won’t bother trying to explain the concepts to you further. > > Daniel What the fuck? I called MYSELF a tool. And your ad hominem makes no sense. What makes you think I’m ‘incapable of understanding courtesy or respect’? What evidence do you have for that? I disagree with you about what is appropriate in this situation, so now I’m a fucking monster of a human being who is _incapable of courtesy_? Oh, now I’m mad. Fuck a whole bunch of you with a rusty spoon, Daniel. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/106 "2006-05-11T21:50:50Z")
> [@Ensign Edison](#): > > What the fuck? I called MYSELF a tool. I misread your comment; my apologies. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/107 "2006-05-11T21:58:14Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Well, just a matter of interpretation, right? Yes . . . if by “matter of interpretation” you mean “putting words in other people’s mouths.” ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/108 "2006-05-11T23:26:05Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > . The fact that I worked in a pet store for eight years, and had thousands of man-hours selling dog food to thousands of other dog owners, and discussing their experiences with them, and had personally tried at least a dozen different brands on my own dogs–how does mentioning those facts in a thread about dog foods make me a dick? If it does, then I just give up. It doesn’t. I said it doesn’t. I suspect you didn’t read my whole post before you fired off the above. > [@](#): > > Again, if someone is gonna spout arrogantly about a subject they know nothing about, I’m probably gonna react to that. Especially if it’s something I DO know something about, obviously. Cracks me up that Chuck spouting ignorantly gets a pass, but me going “Chuck’s spouting ignorantly”–and then daring to back up that assertion–gets a pile on. What. Ever. To quote a great man. “Tact is everything when telling someone they have their head up their ass.” You came off tactless and arrogant and as a bit of a snobbish jerk in your response. That’s my opinion. Others share it. Take the criticism for what it’s worth, or don’t. > [@](#): > > So . . . what’s your point here? By telling you how often I DON’T offer my credentials, that makes me someone who makes a habit out of offering my credentials? I really should just stay out of this, sit back and let you swallow your own tail. I was just remarking on the semantic irony of the post I quoted wherein you were offering your credentials as one who does not offer credentials, by talking about people who consider you as an unpretentious polyglot. No reflection on you, just semantic irony in the situation, like trying to deny an allegation that you deny everything. > [@](#): > > I’m of two minds: who cares? and: Show me the heavy handed. I tempered my tone pretty rigorously. I’m know for my tone deafness, so there’s a big margin for error, but I would really like to see the phrase that said “heavy handed” to you. Considering what I COULD have said; what my emotional reaction is to people who are so dismissive of things they’ve obviously made no effort to learn anything about. It’s a pet peeve. Considering that, I was remarkably moderate in my reaction. In my expert opinion. Expert opinion? What are you credentials? Sorry. Who cares? Not me. It’s no specific phrase or anything, I’m just telling you how it came off IMO. > [@](#): > > “I only joined the pile on to point out how unjustified it was.” No. I think the criticism is valid, and the pile-on unwarranted. Ka-pea-chay? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/109 "2006-05-11T23:42:04Z")
K. And the “expert opinion” crack was a crack. So take some \*whoosh \*if you need it, although your response is a bit ambiguous, so I’m not sure either way. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2006, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/110 "2006-05-11T23:48:06Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > K. And the “expert opinion” crack was a crack. So take some \*whoosh \*if you need it, although your response is a bit ambiguous, so I’m not sure either way. Well, I’ll hardly turn down free whoosh. The weekend is coming up and I’m down to half a case. Here. Since you’re buying you could use one to. Lug high umm. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/111 "2006-05-12T02:09:17Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Then I apologise to anyone who read it that way. I’ll be more careful next time. Female vocals are a passion of mine, and if anyone were turned off by any of the artists I like because of how I come across, that would hurt me to the core. Well, I for one would like to thank you for this. No sarcasm or whoosh intended. I mean it sincerely. Your passion is obvious (as is your knowledge, the links you posted really are fantastic). > [@](#): > > Anyone have any suggestions on a word to use when someone makes declaritive statements of fact (not opinion) about something they don’t know anything about? I’ve thought about this a lot before posting. While I ultimately tend to agree with **LHOD** (ie, don’t bother, just make your point and move on), I personally don’t always follow that advice. As for me, had you said something like: “Wow, man, I can’t believe that you meant that to come across that way. I know you can’t find them on the radio, but there are tons of great female artists out there! Try here and here and here. If that doesn’t give you hope, then I guess we just have radically different tastes.” IMHO, you still get some of the subtle satisfaction of pointing out that he/she probably doesn’t know what the hell they’re talking about, but chances are that he/she (and others) will still read the whole thing and not get pissy. They may even follow the links and get their collective eyes opened a bit. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/112 "2006-05-12T14:29:57Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Well, here’s the problem right here. You’re equating “ignorance” with “stupidity” and neither lissener nor I had that in mind or intended that inference. I do not believe that ignorance equals stupidity. Ignorance to me is not knowing about something. Making blanket statements of fact about that something that you’re ignorant about is what we objected to. I know nothing about opera but I don’t go around saying that there aren’t any good opera singers nowadays. > > Could we have been more in-depth? Sure, but the thread was about Frankie Valli and it would have been a bold hijack. Could either lissener or I have used a more coddling “tone” in our responses? Possibly. I can only speak for myself in that I just didn’t have time to be less curt. If an apology is needed, then I apologise. But whatever. I mean really. I still don’t think anyone said anything that needed a pitting. Well, perhaps, as **mhendo** said quite well, it’s just different interpretations of the word “ignorant” (how often do arguments on this board boil down to semantics?). To me, and I imagine to many, being called ignorant holds a bit more of an insulting tone than you ascribe to it. In which case, we’re just speaking the same language differently, and hey, that’s life I guess. And, yeah, no one really needed a serious pitting; I just felt like this conversation didn’t exactly belong in CS. > [@Ensign Edison](#): > > If the poster in question is insulted at being called ignorant, perhaps he should take greater pains not to expose his ignorance. To be fair, **RealityChuck** (and others, indirectly) was called ignorant. He, however, was _not_ the one to post this thread, I was. Just to be clear. > [@lissener](#): > > Then it’s a good thing no one did that. As I said to **Equipoise** above, maybe it’s just that we’re ascribing different meaning to different words. But you keep saying “no one did any such thing,” and frankly, I think that’s bullshit. People were called ignorant. People were told that listening mainly to commercial radio makes their opinions worthless. People were told that they don’t really know anything about the issue _because_ they listen to commercial radio. What of these things did not happen, in your perception of things? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2006, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/113 "2006-05-12T20:21:59Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > . . . But you keep saying “no one did any such thing,” and frankly, I think that’s bullshit. People were called ignorant. People were told that listening mainly to commercial radio makes their opinions worthless. People were told that they don’t really know anything about the issue _because_ they listen to commercial radio. > > What of these things did not happen, in your perception of things? Or, since you’re interpreting rather than quoting me, you could say to yourself, “Hmm, I wonder if there’s another way to interpret what lissener actually said?” Rather than presuming your interpretation is a better indication of what I actually said than what I actually said. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/114 "2006-05-13T06:55:13Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Now, if he’d said, “Yeah I know, Kate Bush, Debbie Harry, Chrissie Hynde, Polly Jean Harvey, et al., heard em, don’t like em,” I’d never have batted an eye. I get that some people don’t like some vocalists, and while I would not have shared that opinion, I would not have read it as arrogant, or ignorant. It might be too late in the trainwreck for this, but if I can just ask one question: why do you assume that he hasn’t heard these artists? **RealityChuck** can sometimes be arrogant, but he is very seldom ignorant, especially when it comes to 20th century cultural history. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107/115 "2006-05-13T16:43:17Z")
> [@samm](#): > > I thought you were a music genius. Don’t you know that Barbara Streisand and Cher are gay? Learn something new every day. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/lissener-vs-his-students-mild/356107.md?page=5)