# List/discuss your Starwars quandaries here... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 22, 2003, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288 "2003-03-22T03:54:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/21 "2003-03-22T21:54:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\* > Who says Yoda doesn’t know? Did you notice the sneer on his face in Palpatine’s office? Alternatively, since they’ve been supposedly extinct for 1,000 years, how could the Jedi recognize a Sith? (Even Qui-Gon had to speculate that Maul was one.) Yoda points out that the shroud of the dark side has fallen at the film’s end, and earlier, Mace stated that the Jedi’s ability to use the force was diminished. The bottom line: the Jedi’s powers are on the fritz. > Finally: who says Palpatine is a Sith? Even the official site lists Palpatine and Darth Sidious as two different people. (Snicker.) > \*\* That’s been my theory for a few years now. That one is the clone of the other. Either Sidious cloned himself (possibly sans midichlorians :rolleyes:) and inserted himself in the good graces of Naboo, or Palpatine cloned himself and had his clone trained by the Sith. Either way the original figures he’ll destroy the clone once it’s goal is achieved and will take it’s place. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/22 "2003-03-22T22:16:16Z")
ResIpsaLoquitor: The “think, use the force” quote is just before Anakin and Obi-Wan go into the sports bar in AOTC. I will watch it again, but I believe Jango has his gun on him when facing Mace. Perhaps he had no time to draw it but I doubt he was worried about Mace dodging laser shots indefinitely. Which is faster, drawing a gun or diving for a lightsaber? If Palpatine is Sidious, Yoda does not know it, just watch the end of AOTC. The contradiction to me, is that he can sense the darkside in Dooku. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/23 "2003-03-22T22:20:33Z")
> [@](#): > > That’s been my theory for a few years now. That one is the clone of the other. Either Sidious cloned himself (possibly sans midichlorians :rolleyes and inserted himself in the good graces of Naboo, or Palpatine cloned himself and had his clone trained by the Sith. Either way the original figures he’ll destroy the clone once it’s goal is achieved and will take it’s place. It’s a fun theory, but I’ve never bought it, as I still can’t see what it adds to the story. Having Palpatine be Sidious adds to the nastiness of the character: he can be right in front of a Jedi’s nose, and Yoda hasn’t figured it out. Remember Yoda’s warning in Episode VI: “Do not understimate the Emperor.” My suspicion is that Yoda was just as taken as the rest of the galaxy. ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/24 "2003-03-22T22:53:58Z")
> [@](#): > > The “think, use the force” quote is just before Anakin and Obi-Wan go into the sports bar in AOTC. I will watch it again, but I believe Jango has his gun on him when facing Mace. Perhaps he had no time to draw it but I doubt he was worried about Mace dodging laser shots indefinitely. Which is faster, drawing a gun or diving for a lightsaber? Obi-Wan is not saying “think in order to use the Force” but “think, and also use the Force.” Jedi are not just vessels for the Force: they are trained in a multitude of other combat, survival, and detective skills. Obi-Wan is telling Anakin, “keep your eyes open and look for anything out of place, with your rational mind and the knowledge you have of what a Coruscant bar ought to look like, and also keep your Force senses open for any malicious thoughts.” “Feel, don’t think” is dumb advice for the real world, but it works in fictional universes where there actually is a magical energy field available through one’s instincts, so it’s likely that both Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan will suggest it in situations where instinct and reflexes are of importance, such as a podrace or a lightsaber training exercise. > [@](#): > > If Palpatine is Sidious, Yoda does not know it, just watch the end of AOTC. The contradiction to me, is that he can sense the darkside in Dooku. If hiding one’s dark side presence from Jedi is itself a Force skill, then we can assume that Palpatine, the master, is able to do so, while Dooku, the apprentice, is not able to do so, or at least not while also directing the Force towards an intense lightsaber duel. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/25 "2003-03-22T23:26:42Z")
Good arguments markdiscordia. Care to take on the Jango and bad acting questions? ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2003, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/26 "2003-03-22T23:53:13Z")
One that bugs me: In **The Phantom Menace** , Qui-Gon makes two bets with Watto on the same race. In the first, Qui-Gon bets his ship against the parts they need to repair it. In the second, Qui-Gon bets the racing pod (really, Anakin’s, but Watto thinks it’s his) against Anakin’s freedom. While working out the terms of this bet, Watto says, “No pod is worth two slaves,” but he takes the bet, so it seems that a pod _is_ worth one slave. Well, Anakin wins, so Qui-Gon wins both bets. Just before they leave, they sell the racing pod, and Anakin shows his mother Shmi how much money they made from the sale, and she’s impressed with the amount. So, since they have a seemingly-princely sum of money from the sale of the pod, why didn’t they just buy Shmi’s freedom? Anakin’s already free by the terms of the bet, and they have all this ready cash, but they left her behind anyway. What’s up with that? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/27 "2003-03-23T01:05:04Z")
> [@](#): > > So, since they have a seemingly-princely sum of money from the sale of the pod, why didn’t they just buy Shmi’s freedom? Anakin’s already free by the terms of the bet, and they have all this ready cash, but they left her behind anyway. What’s up with that? Because Watto wouldn’t have given her up. Remember, Watto was a gambler, and he thought the risk of losing Anakin to this Qui-Gon guy was extremely unlikely (Sebulba _was_ favored, and even after the race, Watto was convinced that Qui-Gon had insider information.) Now the race is over, and under the terms of the contract, Watto was _required_ to give him up. Watch the film again: Watto doesn’t do it willingly. However, a _sale_ of a slave is different: he’d have to _consent_ to sell Shmi, and at that point, no amount of money would be good enough. Check out the new SW novel, _Tatooine Ghost_, by Troy Denning (released only 3 weeks ago). Princess Leia discovers Shmi’s history, and learns that Watto actually grew fond of her after Anakin left and basically had to be tricked into selling her to Cliegg Lars. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/28 "2003-03-23T02:20:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\* > Check out the new SW novel, _Tatooine Ghost_, by Troy Denning (released only 3 weeks ago). Princess Leia discovers Shmi’s history, and learns that Watto actually grew fond of her after Anakin left and basically had to be tricked into selling her to Cliegg Lars. \*\* Dammit, I haven’t READ _Tatooine Ghost_ yet! And you spoil it for me! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Minor\_Irritant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e495f1/32.png) [@Minor\_Irritant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Minor_Irritant)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/29 "2003-03-23T03:26:34Z")
Okay, so are the Marvel comics canon now? For years, I was pretty sure that, despite the original Essential Guide to Characters, that the answer was “no”. Now, however, a Zentraedi popped up in the EG to Aliens, Shira Brie got an entry in the New EG to Characters, and that car Anakin swiped in AOTC belonged to Senator Greyshade! What gives? Was a conscious decision made, or did the stuff just sorta creep in? ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/30 "2003-03-23T05:12:49Z")
> [@](#): > > Okay, so are the Marvel comics canon now? For years, I was pretty sure that, despite the original Essential Guide to Characters, that the answer was “no”. > > Now, however, a Zentraedi popped up in the EG to Aliens, Shira Brie got an entry in the New EG to Characters, and that car Anakin swiped in AOTC belonged to Senator Greyshade! What gives? Was a conscious decision made, or did the stuff just sorta creep in? The position of the closest thing to an authority on this, Steve Sansweet, is that \*\* everything \*\* is canon, even the stuff that contradicts the other stuff (most of which can be explained away somehow.) ---
**Author:** ![markdiscordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c6cbf5/32.png) [@markdiscordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markdiscordia)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/31 "2003-03-23T05:14:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Good arguments markdiscordia. Care to take on the Jango and bad acting questions? There’s no answer that jumps out about Jango. Maybe he was just rattled by having someone fight back so effectively and wasn’t thinking straight. I think Christiansen and Portman’s acting was fine. They’re SUPPOSED to look awkward–that’s the point. If they actually knew anything about romance, then the story wouldn’t make sense. For other actors, I don’t have anything. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Torque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Max\_Torque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Torque)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/32 "2003-03-23T06:29:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\*Because Watto wouldn’t have given her up. Remember, Watto was a gambler, and he thought the risk of losing Anakin to this Qui-Gon guy was extremely unlikely (Sebulba _was_ favored, and even after the race, Watto was convinced that Qui-Gon had insider information.) > > Now the race is over, and under the terms of the contract, Watto was _required_ to give him up. Watch the film again: Watto doesn’t do it willingly. However, a _sale_ of a slave is different: he’d have to _consent_ to sell Shmi, and at that point, no amount of money would be good enough. > > Check out the new SW novel, _Tatooine Ghost_, by Troy Denning (released only 3 weeks ago). Princess Leia discovers Shmi’s history, and learns that Watto actually grew fond of her after Anakin left and basically had to be tricked into selling her to Cliegg Lars. \*\* Still, considering it’s evident from the movie that Watto lost cash to others in bets on the race, you’d think he’d need the cash to pay off his other debts. Qui-Gon and company didn’t even _try_ to buy her, they just said “goodbye” and split. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_Carnage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/max_carnage/32/12775_2.png) [@Max\_Carnage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_Carnage)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 6:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/33 "2003-03-23T06:43:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ResIpsaLoquitor \* > \*\*It’s a fun theory, but I’ve never bought it, as I still can’t see what it adds to the story. Having Palpatine be Sidious adds to the nastiness of the character: he can be right in front of a Jedi’s nose, and Yoda hasn’t figured it out. Remember Yoda’s warning in Episode VI: “Do not understimate the Emperor.” My suspicion is that Yoda was just as taken as the rest of the galaxy. \*\* Ah, see, you are still under the assumption that Lucas is paying attention to the original trilogy as he’s pulling these last three out of his ass. It’s so obvious that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, that I figure they couldn’t possibly be. It would be such a friggin’ let down story-telling wise. Then I remember that Lucas’ story telling has really diminished since the first 2 movies (eps 4,5) and it’s unfortunately possible that he’s going to reveal them to be the same and honestly think someone is going to be shocked. ---
**Author:** ![Achernar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e274bd/32.png) [@Achernar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Achernar)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/34 "2003-03-23T07:20:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Max Carnage \* > It’s so obvious that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person, that I figure they couldn’t possibly be. It would be such a friggin’ let down story-telling wise. I feel the same way about Amidala being Luke and Leia’s mother. 😉 I guess it’s a bit late to start doing spoiler warnings, but here goes. Spoiler for Phantom Menace: One of my problems is like Jango making a bad move to lose his last fight. But it was Darth Maul. I mean, this guy has fast enough reflexes to take on two Jedi at once, and then when Obi-Wan jumps out of the pit and gets Qui-Gonn’s lightsaber, he waits patiently to get cut in two. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/35 "2003-03-23T12:38:24Z")
I know this is heretical in the SW universe but I do not like the force. I don’t like the appeal to “magic” to solve problems or having the heroes posses special powers. ---
**Author:** ![RawkStah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@RawkStah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RawkStah)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/36 "2003-03-23T19:51:44Z")
RE: The Jedi Council being unable to detect Sith on Coruscant… Part of this, IMHO, could be the notion that the division of The Force into Light and Dark limited the perceptions of the Jedi. The Council Temple was situated on one of the strongest Force nexuses (nexi?) in the galaxy. It could be that all the Jedi were overstimulated, and couldn’t sense things properly. Or, it could be that Palpatine/Sidious was really REALLY good at cloaking himself. (In at least one of the prequel novels it’s mentioned that Jedi can hide in plain sight, even from other Jedi Masters.) Yoda senses something, but can’t put his finger on it. Perhaps the Sith remain hidden in plain sight for the same reason that Yoda was able to escape when Emperor Palpatine purged the Jedi – he hid on Dagobah, which had a massive Dark Side prescence, and his prescence was cancelled out. There is balance in The Force. Of course, when you get into the New Jedi Order series, Vergere, a Jedi Master who went missing before the Clone Wars, has discovered that there is no such thing as a Light or Dark side – there is only The Force. By limiting what you can do with The Force, you limit your perceptions. By limiting your perceptions, you leave yourself open to attack by things like the Yuuzhan Vong, which don’t “exist” in The Force as Jedi have been trained. ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2003, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/37 "2003-03-23T22:30:37Z")
Guin, Ah…crap, I feel awful. I forgot that there actually were EU readers here. If it helps, I didn’t spoil _much_. I’ll go off to the corner and whip myself now. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 6:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/38 "2003-03-24T06:21:05Z")
Forget about buying Shmi, etc. The real question is, why did they enter that bet in the first place? Why not just buy the parts they needed and be done with it? Even granting for the sake of argument that Watto was the only vendor on the planet who could help them (and whose word did they take on that?), and that he couldn’t be “persuaded” to take their money, what’s to stop the Jedi from “persuading” some other merchant to change their Republic money to local currency? It’s reasonable enough that it should be well within the bounds of the suggestion power (after all, Qui-Gonn tried to persuade Watto to take it), and it wouldn’t even have hurt the locals that much: It’s still money, and injection of Republic currency into the economy would have helped to strengthen ties to the Republic, which would have tended to stabilize Tatooine a bit. ---
**Author:** ![by-tor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/by-tor/32/266_2.png) [@by-tor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/by-tor)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/39 "2003-03-24T14:28:35Z")
Wow, I hadn’t thought of that Chronos. I watched AOTC again yesterday and I found another problem. In one scene they have a chance to shoot down Dooku but the clonetrooper says they are " out of rockets." But those ships have forward laser guns. Why couldn’t they just shoot him with a laser? ---
**Author:** ![ResIpsaLoquitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b3f665/32.png) [@ResIpsaLoquitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ResIpsaLoquitor)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2003, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288/40 "2003-03-24T14:33:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I watched AOTC again yesterday and I found another problem. In one scene they have a chance to shoot down Dooku but the clonetrooper says they are " out of rockets." But those ships have forward laser guns. Why couldn’t they just shoot him with a laser? A homing problem, I’d assume. The Clones were piloting the lasers, and unlike Dooku, didn’t have force-powers for manuevering. Dooku would have been able to to dodge any laser shots, while a missle would simply lock onto him and follow wherever he’d go. Watch the Obi-Wan/Jango space battle again. Obi is able to dodge all of Slave 1’s lasers, but NOT the homing missile. It’s only because Obi drops his spare parts that he’s able to fool the missile. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/list-discuss-your-starwars-quandaries-here/163288.md?page=3)