# Listen up assholes -- How to turn left. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 30, 2007, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998 "2007-06-30T01:00:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/41 "2007-07-01T02:46:51Z")
The Vancouver Left: -Advance into the intersection when it turns green. -Wait until the light turns yellow. -Turn. -Watch three cars behind you do the same thing as the light turns red. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/42 "2007-07-01T03:12:53Z")
The Calgary left: -Advance into the intersection when it turns green. -Wait until the light turns red. -Wait until three cars have run the fresh red. -Turn. -Watch three cars behind you also turn left. I see that advancing into the intersection on green [actually is illegal in California (if you can’t clear the intersection before the red light).](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#traffic_lights) (Third last paragraph - “Solid Green.”) I can only imagine the traffic snarls if people actually obeyed that rule. Entering the intersection on a green obviously is not as universal as I thought. I still think backing out of an intersection is the mark of a rookie, bad driver, though. If your local law is don’t enter until you can clear, then don’t enter - don’t enter then back out. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/43 "2007-07-01T03:53:43Z")
**cerberus** , I’m sure your method works just fine in Hooterville and even in metropolitan Bugtussle. Please stay out of real cities. I’m not sure if you’ll get rear-ended or shot first, but surely one. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/44 "2007-07-01T04:17:01Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Other than in a handful of states where they have ‘anti-gridlock’ laws, [/quote] For the record, California is apparently [one of the exceptions you mention](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#traffic_lights): > [@](#): > > Solid Green- A green light means “GO” but first give the right of way to any vehicle, bicyclist, or pedestrian in the intersection. If you are turning left, make the turn only if you have enough space to complete the turn before any oncoming vehicle, bicyclist, or pedestrian becomes a hazard. **Do not enter the intersection if you cannot get completely across before the light turns red. If you block the intersection, you can be cited.** ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/45 "2007-07-01T04:26:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] For the record, California is apparently [one of the exceptions you mention](http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs16thru17.htm#traffic_lights): [/QUOTE] I do not think that is the meaning of the quote. I read that as referring to vehicles going straight through the intersection, and the intent is to avoid gridlock when the lights change. If you are making a left turn, you are never going to get completely across the intersection. However, I may be wrong, and I will look for something to clarify this. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/46 "2007-07-01T04:41:22Z")
**Boyo Jim** Gee, fuckwit, does _Atlanta_ qualify as Hooterville? Worst fucking traffic and surface streets in the Southeast? One of the top five worst traffic cities, in there with LA, Boston, NYC, Chicago? :rolleyes: At least in “Hooterville”, we have lots of intersections with _left turn lanes_, with left turn arrows. And my two-decade experience with Atlanta drivers suggests that I really, really shouldn’t trust the worst of them when it comes to things like inter-car spacing, use of turn indicators, right-of-way issues and not blasting through intersections. Because my defensive driving tactics are aimed at the worst case drivers. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/47 "2007-07-01T04:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] **Boyo Jim** Gee, fuckwit, does _Atlanta_ qualify as Hooterville? … [/QUOTE] Apparently so. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/48 "2007-07-01T05:08:11Z")
Very rich, coming from a massive metropolitan complex like _Madison, Wisconsin_. How many millions of people in the Madison MSA? Gee, what is it, a college town of ~250,00 versus a metropolitan area of ~5,000,000? Dude, you’re basically a super-sized town along the lines of Athens, Georgia. Hell, Wisconsin total and Atlanta are approaching a tie, population-wise. And who is the podunk/hooterville here? Asshat. Atlanta has some of the worst and most challenging highway problems and surface street problems in the nation. I never seem to hear how bad the driving is in Madison, but plenty on the traffic in Atlanta. [cite](http://www.forbes.com/logistics/2006/02/06/worst-traffic-nightmares-cx_rm_0207traffic.html) On the plus side, we seem to have real problems with density and congestion, but less so with road rage, though I suspect that we’re catching up. And I’d add that many of us in Atlanta are mixed in from other populations, which adds to the fun to be had as we try to “average out” the differences in driving culture. But I’m not impressed by the relative challenges of driving in a 5,000,000+ city versus those of driving in a medium-sized college town ranked by [ePodunk.com](http://ePodunk.com) as #3 in its’ class. ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/49 "2007-07-01T05:08:58Z")
If it is illegal to do this in Cali, then why does LA not have many left arrows? Odd that one of our major metropolitan centers would not have something in use which 99% of the other cities have. ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/50 "2007-07-01T05:12:12Z")
The population for Madison is ~250,000, not ~25,000. I suspect that traffic laws and regulations vary widely by city, county and state. Even where there is state law in effect, in many cases cities and counties are free to have some leeway in legislating local variations. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/51 "2007-07-01T05:16:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Atlanta has some of the worst and most challenging highway problems and surface street problems in the nation. Sounds like it–what with drivers making left turns who refuse to enter the intersection, jamming up traffic even more. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/52 "2007-07-01T05:37:49Z")
:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/53 "2007-07-01T06:22:45Z")
So I checked with the [Georgia Driver’s Manual](http://www.dds.ga.gov/docs/forms/FullDriversManual.pdf) On the turning/intersection issue: > [@](#): > > 1. When making a left turn at an intersection, alley or driveway, yield the right-of-way to all traffic from the opposite direction, then proceed when it is safe to do so. > > **How To Make a left Turn** > > Move into the farthest left lane going in your direction, give the left turn signal, keeping the wheels straight _at the intersection until the turn is made_, and yield the right-of-way to all vehicles which are approaching from the opposite direction. After yielding and when safe to do so, proceed with your turn. Make the turn in such a way as to end up in the left lane of the street into which you turned. I’m not seeing any of this “hang out in the intersection” shit here. I’m seeing “stay at the edge with your signal on until you can complete the turn completely.” As for defensive driving: > [@](#): > > Drive Defensively: … Never trust another driver to do either what you think they are going to do, or what they should do in a particular situation. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/54 "2007-07-01T07:16:08Z")
Let’s read for detail shall we? > [@](#): > > Move into the farthest left lane going in your direction, Duh, you don’t make a left from the far right lane. > [@](#): > > give the left turn signal, Again duh. > [@](#): > > keeping the wheels straight at the intersection until the turn is made, They are suggesting, as is the standard safety precaution, that you not turn your steering wheel until you actually making the turn. There is nothing in this statement about where you should or should not stop. > [@](#): > > and yield the right-of-way to all vehicles which are approaching from the opposite direction. Again duh, the left turner has to give way to any car approaching from the other direction. > [@](#): > > After yielding and when safe to do so, proceed with your turn. No one in this thread has said any different. > [@](#): > > Make the turn in such a way as to end up in the left lane of the street into which you turned. Again common sense if you are turning onto a multi-lane street. So just where in that paragraph is the stay at the edge of the intersection shit you were talking about? ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/55 "2007-07-01T07:31:37Z")
I failed my driving test for doing exactly what you describe, so I’m pretty sure it’s not proper procedure in Quebec, either. It’s common, and it happens - but fuck the hell off if you’re unhappy sitting behind me. On some intersections I feel comfortable moving out, at others I don’t. I always have my turn signal on, so people can go into the other lane if they want. I refuse to disobey the law, jam up intersections and put people in danger so you can get somewhere two seconds faster. ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/56 "2007-07-01T08:11:05Z")
I looked through the driver’s handbooks for a number of states, and found that they were often ambiguous or didn’t address the issue. However, the Colorado driver’s handbook plainly says not to enter the intersection. > [@](#): > > LEFT TURNS - If you are turning left, you should wait at the stop line or crosswalk until there is a gap in traffic large enough to allow you to pull into the intersection and complete your turn. Pulling into the intersection to wait to turn left blocks the intersection for emergency vehicles, limits visibility for oncoming traffic and puts you in a position to get in an accident if the light changes and oncoming traffic runs the red light while you are making your turn. Never turn the front wheels towards the left while you are waiting to turn. If you happen to get rear ended, you would be pushed into [oncoming traffic.] In urban or metropolitan areas, you must signal continuously for 100 feet before making a turn or a lane change. Some sources (state police, etc.) in other places say that either practice is legal, but that it’s safer to stay out of the intersection if you can’t complete the left turn. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 12:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/57 "2007-07-01T12:16:09Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Very rich, coming from a massive metropolitan complex like _Madison, Wisconsin_. How many millions of people in the Madison MSA? Gee, what is it, a college town of ~250,00 versus a metropolitan area of ~5,000,000? Dude, you’re basically a super-sized town along the lines of Athens, Georgia. Hell, Wisconsin total and Atlanta are approaching a tie, population-wise. And who is the podunk/hooterville here? Asshat. Atlanta has some of the worst and most challenging highway problems and surface street problems in the nation. I never seem to hear how bad the driving is in Madison, but plenty on the traffic in Atlanta. [cite](http://www.forbes.com/logistics/2006/02/06/worst-traffic-nightmares-cx_rm_0207traffic.html) On the plus side, we seem to have real problems with density and congestion, but less so with road rage, though I suspect that we’re catching up. And I’d add that many of us in Atlanta are mixed in from other populations, which adds to the fun to be had as we try to “average out” the differences in driving culture. But I’m not impressed by the relative challenges of driving in a 5,000,000+ city versus those of driving in a medium-sized college town ranked by [ePodunk.com](http://ePodunk.com) as #3 in its’ class. [/QUOTE] I grew up and learned to drive in Chicago. I also spent a dozen years living in Washington DC and navigating through most of the northeast corridor. I will admit that Madison is comparative child’s play, but even here people know enough to pull out into the intersection waiting for a turn. I’m guessing you just don’t make turns at busy intersections without an arrow. Because with that tactic, you really can’t: the traffic flow from the other direction just doesn’t allow it. You’d be really fucked in Chicago, because there are many intersections with a left-turn lane, but no arrow – you can’t (legally, at least) change your mind and go straight if the oncoming volume is too heavy. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/58 "2007-07-01T14:14:56Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] Again duh, the left turner has to give way to any car approaching from the other direction. [/QUOTE] The thing **Cerebus** quoted said not to begin the turn until “after yielding” to oncoming traffic. It seems to me that pulling into an intersection before the oncoming traffic has all gone by would be to start the turn _before_ yielding to oncoming traffic. It’s not as clear to me as the California wording, but it does look to me like the Georgia wording is saying to stay behind the line til there’s a gap big enough to get through. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![cerberus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/71e660/32.png) [@cerberus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cerberus)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/59 "2007-07-01T14:21:03Z")
It may well be standard practice to do this in Chicago - I generally drive in or near the Atlanta/Birmingham MSAs. If the prevailing practice requires such left turns in the intersection, so be it. But if I can avoid such things, I generally do so. **Rick** At best, you may infer ambiguity in the GDM. The way I read _at the intersection_ is at the white line prior to entering the intersection. I think this is reasonable, given that some manuals in other places explicitly give directions about turning after driving into or in the intersection. I don’t see anything in there about entering the intersection. Having said that, plenty of people both a)turn while idling in the intersection, and b)run the red light or c)rush the yellow light. I choose not to do those things. ---
**Author:** ![TheLoadedDog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/35a633/32.png) [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2007, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998/60 "2007-07-01T23:27:29Z")
[QUOTE=cerberus] Having said that, plenty of people both a)turn while idling in the intersection, and b)run the red light or c)rush the yellow light. I choose not to do those things. [/QUOTE] As has tried to be explained earlier, if you do it properly (ie pull forwards into the intersection), you CAN’T run the red light, as being over the stop line means that light no longer applies to you. There are several intersections here in Sydney, where if you were turning in front of me, we’d be there all morning. And I’ve been stuck behind people like that, and other drivers have done dangerous, frustrated moves as a result. I used to turn across the oncoming traffic on the main road to the airport - I was turning into a minor street. The stream of vehicles coming towards us was as good as infinite, for our purposes. There was never a break in it, EXCEPT when the lights changed, and then one car could get through. If I was the third car back from the intersection, that would mean waiting through three light cycles. If a timid person was up front - and I’ve seen this happen - all manner of shit would ensue. Usually after the third or fourth light cycle, the timid person would either give up and go straight, or panic on the orchestra of horns behind him, but panic AFTER hesitating yet again, and then go through dangerously after the cross traffic had started moving. If you are too nervous to do basic things like turning on a light, you should not be driving. I have a friend who is a nervous driver. She always was, and one day that caused her to have an accident. Now, she’s even worse, and I had to offend her by saying I’d rather take the train, thanks. It’s as bad as aggression out there on the road. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/listen-up-assholes-how-to-turn-left/409998.md?page=4)