# Literalism in the King James Bible: Samson **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 10, 2003, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041 "2003-02-10T05:25:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/21 "2003-02-11T11:42:32Z")
**Parent:** Once upon a time… **Child:** How long ago? **Parent:** A _long_ time ago, many hundreds of years, a man and his wife lived in the forest… **Child:** What was his name, where was the forest? Deciduous or coniferous? CITE?!? **Parent:** Look, you little weasel, just shut up and go to sleep! ---
**Author:** ![DAVEW0071](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19b73/32.png) [@DAVEW0071](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DAVEW0071)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/22 "2003-02-11T12:31:23Z")
Thanks, **JThunder** , I was starting to wonder if I had accidentally enabled the Cloak of Invisibility[sup]TM[/sup] on my post. I stand by my assertion (and **Polycarp’s** much better and more succinct version of it). It may not be literally true, but it conveys a truth. And **Milum** , if you don’t think the jawbone of an ass would make an effective weapon, let me ask you, would you wanna get bopped on the head by one wielded by someone like Barry Bonds? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/23 "2003-02-11T15:12:57Z")
Dear Dave-guy, You, dave, are perhaps a god, but a minor god. But even a minor god won’t mind telling me what is the essence of the story about Samson killing 1,000 Philistines. Is it a literary set-up to give impact to Gods eventual retibution? And bye-the-bye, that was a cheap shot comparing Samson to Barry Bonds. Sure Samson could swing a mean club, but he weren’t no Barry Bonds. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/24 "2003-02-11T15:16:39Z")
I’m still intrigued as to why you think an equine jawbone is a frail thing - any chance of an answer on that? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/25 "2003-02-11T22:59:33Z")
Why yes, Mangetout, there is a hundred percent chance you’ll get a reply to your question…ahem! Bones are relatively light. They fracture, they break. If you hit a man with a bone you might knock him out, but it takes an awful lot of knocking to kill a man with a bone, even the robust leg bone of an elk or a bison or a horse, much less the jawbone of a donkey. Once ago, in a book I read, a young anthropolgist wondered as you do, why didn’t primitive man utilize bones as fighting weapons more often. He set about beating up bags of sand, dead mules, and all manner of things with the most lethal looking bones that were likely to be available to early man. He ran through a lot of bones. Bones, he eventually decided, were used by early man only in a pinch, and they certainly were not worth a toot when it came to bringing down big game. Another point: If Samson somehow killed 1,000 men with a donkey’s jawbone, what with them kicking, screaming, and flopping around, the very best he could have done is about one killing per hour. Let’s see… one dead Philistine per hour in an eight hour working day…let’s see… that would come to… Wow, one hundred and twenty-five working days! But no matter I guess time passes quickly if you’re having fun. Whallago I found a url that better illustrates my point about the jawbone episode with more finesse than I…I’ll go and try to re-find it. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/26 "2003-02-11T23:35:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > **Once ago, in a book I read, a young anthropolgist wondered as you do, why didn’t primitive man utilize bones as fighting weapons more often. He set about beating up bags of sand, dead mules, and all manner of things with the most lethal looking bones that were likely to be available to early man. He ran through a lot of bones.** Did he use fresh bones? - it makes a big difference. Again, I’m not asserting that the story should be taken literally (_exactly_ 1000 Philistines? not 1004 or 996?) and I suspect that any single non-metal blunt trauma weapon would be in pretty poor condition after such intensive use, however equine jawbones _have_ been used as effective weapons (do a google on ‘Jawbone warclub’). Have you any documentation etc to support your view that the donkey’s jawbone story may be a pun or other literary device, rather than just a tall tale? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/27 "2003-02-12T01:38:42Z")
_Ah ha! I found it Manget, this I think, is more dispassionately said…_ \*\* Jawbone in Judges\*\* [Edited] ``` - Tom Longstaff ``` “Lehi” probably comes from the root lamed, “het”, “he” meaning “smoothness” Lehi means “jaw” or “cheek”. I’ve not seen anything suggesting another meaning for “lehi” and it is certainly used to mean “jaw” or “cheek” in other contexts in the Bible. The incident (Sampson slaying the thousands) is used to explain the origin of the name Ramat Lehi (The “heights of Lehi”) since in Hebrew all names have meaning and often some such story explains how the place got its name. The section abounds in puns, especially verse 16 where the word for “donkey” and “heap” is the same word. Most translations are unable to render the clear pun in Hebrew and the translation above misses it badly. I would recommend, for starters, a look at Robert G. Boling’s commentary on Judges in the Anchor Bible Commentary Series (available in virtually every library - from Doubleday, 1975). She could then move to other commentaries. The verse is not a difficult one although it is hard for a reader to see all of the puns without a knowledge of Hebrew. A better rendering would be something like: With the jawbone of an ass, heaps upon heaps, With the jawbone of an ass I have killed a thousand men. recognizing that the word for “ass” and “heap” is the same word. As for the story being “weird,” this is the same Sampson who kills a lion with his bare hands and subsequently finds wonderful honey in the carcass. This is the same Sampson that catches 300 foxes and ties their tails together with burning torches in between to burn up all the Philistine grain. Is the account of slaying a thousand men with the jawbone of an ass any more incredible than this other legendary material? The root het, mem, resh (from which we get the word for “donkey” or “he-ass” and the word “heap” (here “a heap, two heaps”) has many meanings. It can mean “to ferment” or “to foam up” and it can mean “to be red.” The obvious allusions to violence and bloodshed would not have been lost on the ancient readers. The pun, after all, in classical Hebrew is seldom a form of humor (never the lowest form) and is much more frequently a vehicle of knowledge. It is like when I use the word “spring” you want to know whether I mean a season of year, a source of cool water, a resilient coil of metal, or the action of Snoopy leaping like a fierce jungle animal out of his tree. The ancient Semite would have looked with wonder at the meaning of the word “spring” which could simultaneously express so much. \_\_\_\_ **Jawbone in Judges** ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/28 "2003-02-12T02:11:52Z")
\<\< Did he use fresh bones? - it makes a big difference. \>\> Yes, the jawbone is described as “moist” or “new” depending on your translation. An old bone would be too brittle. And the story is clearly an example of humor, aside from the word-play that abounds. It’s clearly meant to show the Philistines as complete wusses, and was obviously a story much enjoyed. ---
**Author:** ![BURNER](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@BURNER](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BURNER)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/29 "2003-02-12T02:47:25Z")
(A) I truly believe that Samson slew 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass.\_\_\_\_ yes [li] no[/li] (B) I truly believe that the ancient Hebrews who wrote the Bible were so dumb that they really thought that Samson slew 1,000 Philistines with the jawbone of an ass.\_\_\_\_ yes [li] no[/li] © I believe that the ancient Hebrews who wote the Bible thought Samson a baffoon and made jokes behind his back.\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ [li] yes no[/li] (D) I think like Fescue; the Bible is bullshit.\_\_ [\*\*] yes no. Thank you. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/30 "2003-02-12T22:17:50Z")
Well that’s quite a persuasive argument, **Milum** , now, about this comment… > [@](#): > > Think. For two thousand years we good Christians have believed that Samson literally killed a thousand Phillistines … ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/31 "2003-02-13T14:45:59Z")
Well, Mangetout, I can certainly testify that we good bible-toteing, foot-washing Baptists in the deep south did. But hey, we move on. And as a rule we of the Bible Belt don’t throw out the baby with the bath wash. Some folks do. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041/32 "2003-02-13T14:55:36Z")
Indeed, although conversely some people, afraid that they might throw out the baby along with the bathwater, never quite pluck up the courage to throw out the bathwater. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/literalism-in-the-king-james-bible-samson/154041.md?page=1)