# little Dad time = gay son? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 5, 2006, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374 "2006-04-05T04:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/21 "2006-04-05T16:49:46Z")
> [@chaoticbear](#): > > Wait until I tell my sister her eventual fate! (Her two older brothers are gay, although I don’t think that the younger will EVER come out of the closet.) Actually, the correlation is only well-established for males, right-handed ones at that. [Here’s an abstract of a ten-year-old study on the subject:](http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/abstract/153/1/27) > [@](#): > > This study investigated whether homosexual men have a higher mean birth order than heterosexual men primarily because they have more older brothers or because they have more older siblings of both sexes. METHOD: For the main analyses, 302 heterosexual men were individually matched on year of birth with an equal number of heterosexual men. Each completed a self-administered, anonymous questionnaire concerning family background and other biodemographic information. RESULTS: Logistic regression analysis showed that homosexuality was positively correlated with the proband’s number of older brothers but not with older sisters, younger brothers, younger sisters, or parental age at the time of the proband’s birth. Each additional older brother increased the odds of homosexuality by 33%. CONCLUSIONS: These results restrict the range of possible theories of the birth order phenomenon to those that can explain not only why older brothers increase the probability of homosexuality in later-born males but also why older sisters neither enhance this effect nor counteract it. [Here’s a PDF of a recent study by the same researcher](http://msu.edu/~breedsm/Blanchard2005IntFratHandHB.pdf) From the abstract: > [@](#): > > … By combining five samples, the authors produced study groups > of 1774 right-handed heterosexuals, 287 non-right-handed heterosexuals, 928 right-handed homosexuals, and 157 non-right-handed homosexuals. The results showed a significant … handedness by older brothers interaction, such that > > (a) the typical positive correlation between homosexuality and greater numbers of older brothers holds only for right-handed males, > (b) among men with no older brothers, homosexuals are more likely to be non-right-handed than heterosexuals; among men with one or more older brothers, homosexuals are less likely to be non-righthanded than heterosexuals, and > (c) the odds of homosexuality are higher for men who have a non-right hand preference or who have older brothers, relative to men with neither of these features, but the odds for men with both features are similar to the odds for men with neither. > > These findings have at least two possible explanations: > > (a) the etiologic factors associated with non-right-handedness and older brothers–hypothesized to be hyperandrogenization and anti-male antibodies, respectively–counteract each other, yielding the functional equivalent of typical > masculinization, and > (b) the number of non-right-handed homosexuals with older brothers is smaller than expected because the combination of the older brothers factor with the non-right-handedness factor is toxic enough to lower the probability that the affected fetus will survive. ---
**Author:** ![MrSquishy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9e5f3/32.png) [@MrSquishy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrSquishy)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/22 "2006-04-05T18:44:27Z")
> [@scotandrsn](#): > > > [@chaoticbear](#): > > > > Wait until I tell my sister her eventual fate! (Her two older brothers are gay, although I don’t think that the younger will EVER come out of the closet.) > > Actually, the correlation is only well-established for males, right-handed ones at that. I wonder if **chaoticbear** was implying her sister is going to turn out to be a slut, referring to post [#19](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7266628&postcount=9) ---
**Author:** ![chaoticbear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f07891/32.png) [@chaoticbear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chaoticbear)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2006, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/23 "2006-04-05T22:00:06Z")
> [@MrSquishy](#): > > I wonder if **chaoticbear** was implying her sister is going to turn out to be a slut, referring to post [#19](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=7266628&postcount=9) I was indeed. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Slant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c57346/32.png) [@Mr.Slant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Slant)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/24 "2006-04-06T01:42:33Z")
> [@chaoticbear](#): > > Wait until I tell my sister her eventual fate! (Her two older brothers are gay, although I don’t think that the younger will EVER come out of the closet.) a username like chaoticbear. and that sentence. why do you make me think of a guy I dated in college and played d&d with? oh well. flashbacks. * * * “I’m playing a 3rd-level really hairy druid in this campaign…” ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/25 "2006-04-06T02:48:59Z")
> [@](#): > > the older brothers factor with the non-right-handedness factor is toxic enough to lower the probability that the affected fetus will survive. My left-handed (straight) youngest brother doesn’t know how lucky he is. He _is_ pretty toxic, though. ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/26 "2006-04-06T03:16:19Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The statement I have heard is that the odds of being gay increase by 1/3 for each older brother. I’ll try to find a cite. > > The idea in the OP sounds pretty Freudian. I wonder what studies, if any, have been done on that topic. Hmmmmmmmmmmm. NO older brothers. I wonder, though, if my single younger brother is 1/3 gay? 😃 Bob ---
**Author:** ![MaceMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4bbf92/32.png) [@MaceMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaceMan)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/27 "2006-04-06T04:13:44Z")
Perhaps your friend was reading the book [A Parent’s Guide to Preventing Homosexuality](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0830823794/ref=pd_bxgy_img_a/103-5674456-9752637?%5Fencoding=UTF8) by Joseph Nicolosi, Ph.D, head of NARTH. Unfortunately, this book goes far beyond jsut pursuing the “distant father” stereotype, and seems to recommend actively crushing anything unique and special about a child until he or she fits squarely into preconceived notions about proper gender roles and behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/28 "2006-04-06T06:19:02Z")
So let’s see . . . does this mean that hetero kids are “that way” because daddy didn’t stay at work long enough? (I’ve gotta admit, I fit just about every theory there is: My father worked long hours, I have an older brother, and I use my right hand for . . . well . . . most things.) ---
**Author:** ![Velma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/85e7bf/32.png) [@Velma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velma)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/29 "2006-04-06T16:53:31Z")
> [@Arjuna34](#): > > I’m in a debate with someone about the time a father spends with his son, and how it affects the odds of the son ending up gay. The claim is that if a father works too much (e.g. 55+ hrs per week), he can’t spend enough time with his son, and this lack of father time increases the odds of the son ending up gay. I’d like to refute that by debunking the source arguments, but unfortunately the source is “I read it somewhere …”, which is kind of hard to refute! > > Does anyone know where this claim might be found? > > Thanks, > > Arjuna34 Is he a conservative Christian? It sounds a lot like what I have heard from groups like Focus on The Family and James Dobson. He likes to put the blame of gay sons on the behavior of the father, and especially blames absent fathers and says single mothers must find a strong present male role model to take father’s place lest sonny boy turn out gay. He has a checklist of sorts of things that father should do so that son does not become gay. If that is his source, luckily James Dobson has been debunked many times and it should be easy to find counter evidence (scientific even!) Unluckily, most people who subscrible to Dobson’s newsletter care little for scientific evidence so arguing with him will probably be pointless. ---
**Author:** ![Arjuna34](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb8c5e/32.png) [@Arjuna34](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arjuna34)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/30 "2006-04-07T12:53:37Z")
Thanks everyone - this thread has been very helpful. After seeing some of the suggsetions here, I think the original source may have been [Bringing Up Boys](http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/084235266X/sr=1-2/qid=1144414132/ref=pd_bbs_2/002-8075376-4474406?%5Fencoding=UTF8&s=books), by James Dobson. The other side has essentially given up this line of reasoning, so the debate’s over! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/31 "2006-04-07T13:09:30Z")
[This](http://www.cwfa.org/articles/10130/CFI/resources/index.htm) article by Concerned Women for America has that idea in it (and every other gay stereotype that has ever been invented). ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/32 "2006-04-07T15:55:20Z")
When I first came out, my Mom went to some counselor or therapist who told her this was the reason for what happened to me. I remember how my Dad used to get mad at Mom when he thought she was showing a little too much sympathy and support for my feelings. So people twist this theory into an excuse to deny emotional needs to children. It disturbs me that in the year 2005 there would still be “professionals” who still peddle this antiquated crap. I reminded Mom that the theory was on the junk heap of psych history, and she dropped it. Now it’s the result of “stress.” Oh sure, in order to escape stress, I chose to make my life 100 times more difficult and complicated than it had been. Yeah, right. :rolleyes: Anything but what it really is. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/33 "2006-04-07T18:28:16Z")
Look, we know for a fact that homosexuality/heterosexuality isn’t 100% genetic. For a fact. Because identical twins (who are genetically identical) are only 50% likely to be gay if they have a gay twin. However, fraternal twins are only as likely as other siblings to be gay if they have a gay twin. So it is clearly established that you aren’t 100% likely to be gay if you get “the gay gene”, and 100% likely to be straight if you get “the straight gene”. No such thing exists, there is no gene for catching the gay. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t pretty much born gay, or mostly gay, or whatever. Just that we don’t really know why people are born gay. But we do know that if you cloned a gay guy his clone might be more likely to be gay than some random baby, but isn’t certain to be gay, maybe not even likely to be gay. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/34 "2006-04-07T23:47:24Z")
I think transsexualism, different as it is from homosexuality (they’re apples and oranges) develops in a similar way. The potential, the seeds of these developments are present in many more people than are actualized. My example is shared by many other transsexuals who say they forced themselves to suppress it for the longest time because of extremely heavy social disapproval and punishement they sensed awaited them if they tried it. One key concept is “agency” by which I mean an individual’s ability to take charge of her own life. All kinds of socialization from the outside work to prevent deviants from realizing that they have any agency to run their own lives as they might see fit. My coming out was a result of coming to realize I owned more agency in my life than I had previously given myself credit for. How much do humans suppress their own potential, for whatever reason, and unconsciously at that? ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2006, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374/35 "2006-04-07T23:55:56Z")
I say we put it to an experiment. take 200 kids, raise 100 in all the ways suggested to keep a kid from being gay. lots of dad time, make them play sports if they don’t want to, etc. the other 100, do the opposite. See if there’s any statistical difference when they grow up. Granted this is a long experiment…but thems the breaks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-dad-time-gay-son/351374.md?page=1)