# Little girls and princesses. A real menace or harmless fun? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 27, 2013, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950 "2013-11-27T20:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2013, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/81 "2013-11-29T14:43:47Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > I am less concerned with someone bitter because they think they deserve to be treated like royalty and more concerned with the ones who are sad because think they don’t deserve to be treated well because they aren’t pretty enough, or young enough (any longer). I don’t know many adult spoiled brats, but I know a LOT of adult women who still preen for compliments from men, especially compliments about their looks, who still feel more empowered when their fading “wiles” work than they do through legitimate exercise of authority, who still avoid directly disagreeing with men, even in polite and professional terms. There is A model–not the only model–of princess-hood that is really rooted in the idea of “it’s awesome to be the most precious ornament in the castle”–cosseted, precious, inherently valuable. I think that’s a model that can have lingering effects–even on women who are otherwise doctors and lawyers and Indian Chiefs. That problem is way deeper than the princess thing. I have a girlfriend who has always seen herself as attractive and sexy (and she is and always will be) and she was raised by hippies - (on a commune!), doesn’t shave her legs, and has a minor in women’s studies. But when she was thirteen or fourteen she started to get a lot of male attention, and it felt good, and now she is 45 and the male attention isn’t what it was, and she has gone through a little bit of a crisis of self esteem. But the opposite isn’t necessarily better. My mother said recently “I never told you girls you were pretty, because I didn’t want you to think it was important.” My mother told us we were smart, strong, interesting…but never pretty. (My mother was a beautician when we were little, so it must have meant something to her. She was also so pretty that I remember her walking into my sixth grade classroom (we had recently moved) and having all the kids whisper “that’s your mom?! She is SO pretty.”) My two sisters and I are all attractive (my baby sister is gorgeous), but we never really knew it - and that made us much easier targets as young adults - we didn’t have that little puzzle of self esteem filled in, so when some guy came along and filled it, we fell - regardless of how healthy the relationship was. I was in my late 20s before I figured out that I really was pretty, that being pretty did give me some power - not take it away, and that I could be pretty AND all those other things my mother told me I was. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/82 "2013-12-05T00:32:16Z")
> [@Penfeather](#): > > Keep Calm And Behead Traitors Yep, we probably would have had that as one of our sayings if the Keep Calm and \_\_\_\_\_\_\_ had been popular a few years earlier. What appealed to my nieces about being a princess was their potential for power. The stories they liked were about princesses that did stuff: Elizabeth I, Isabella of Castile, Tamara of Georgia, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Rala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Rala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rala)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/83 "2013-12-05T12:01:56Z")
> [@Katriona](#): > > But even some of the “modern” Disney versions give some pretty bad messages–The Little Mermaid says “change everything about yourself for a guy” … Oh, it does not. Ariel was \*always \*fascinated by humans and the world on land. Becoming human was her dream long before she knew Eric existed. There was a whole musical number about it! "What would I give if I could live Out of these waters? What would I pay to spend a day Warm on the sand? Bet’cha on land, they understand Bet they don’t reprimand their daughters Bright young women, sick of swimming Ready to stand!" ---
**Author:** ![Rilchiam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rilchiam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rilchiam)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2013, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/84 "2013-12-07T04:57:49Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > When my nieces went through the princess phase I used it as learning opportunity and taught them about the lives of real princesses which meant a lot of hard work and sacrifice. We even developed a saying we still use to encourage each other: “Be a princess” It’s based on the example of Elizabeth I of England. It means hold your head high and persist on no matter what someone else accuses you of and what obstacles they put in your path. That’s similar to what Sara Crewe said in **A Little Princess** – the **book** by Frances Hodgson Burnett. “If I am a princess in rags and tatters, I can be a princess inside.” Which is why I despise the 1995 movie version, where Sara comes off as an entitled brat with no integrity. When she says, or rather spits out, “ **All** girls are princesses!” she sounds like Veruca Salt. And we all know what happened to _her_. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/85 "2013-12-24T12:14:42Z")
On this topic: I never wanted to be a princess when I was little. I was a tomboy. That said, my favourite “princess” characters are Áslaug from _The Saga Of Ragnar Lodbrok_, who’s a shieldmaiden also known as Randalín and Kráka, and Lúthien Tinúviel from _The Silmarillion._ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/86 "2013-12-24T13:12:14Z")
> [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](#): > > Personally, I think the issue is that toys and entertainment have become increasingly gender-segregated, and reinforce outdated stereotypes, especially for girls. > > The perfect example is Lego. There are plain Lego sets - the default. And now there are special Lego sets for girls, which are pink and purple and have beauty parlors and veterinarian offices instead of police stations and awesome Star Wars vehicles. It’s a good example of “men are people, and women are women.” Yup, both toys and stories are becoming more gender-segregated instead of less as they did for a while. Dora was a hit but some exec with craneorectal inversion decided that hey, being a little girl, she wasn’t appropriate for boys - Manny had to be created. Meanwhile, most kids that age loved and love Dora. As a kid, only one of my favourite fairy tales involved a princess, and it was Piel de Asno (Peau d’Ane in French, I don’t remember its English name): a princess escapes her father’s advances, fleeing the country wearing a wise donkey’s hide as a cape and carrying several wonderful dresses her father has given her. She becomes a scullery maid and, during a holiday, meets the local prince… tru wuv ensues, but not without a lot of give and take on both parts (in some versions, the prince has seen her wearing a fancy dress no servant should have and decided to find out what is going on). Definitely not that freaking Mermaid that made me want to scream! ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/87 "2013-12-24T13:15:21Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Yup, both toys and stories are becoming more gender-segregated instead of less as they did for a while. Dora was a hit but some exec with craneorectal inversion decided that hey, being a little girl, she wasn’t appropriate for boys - Manny had to be created. Meanwhile, most kids that age loved and love Dora. > > As a kid, only one of my favourite fairy tales involved a princess, and it was Piel de Asno (Peau d’Ane in French, I don’t remember its English name): a princess escapes her father’s advances, fleeing the country wearing a wise donkey’s hide as a cape and carrying several wonderful dresses her father has given her. She becomes a scullery maid and, during a holiday, meets the local prince… tru wuv ensues, but not without a lot of give and take on both parts (in some versions, the prince has seen her wearing a fancy dress no servant should have and decided to find out what is going on). Definitely not that freaking Mermaid that made me want to scream! You know, that’s the one with all the incest. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/88 "2013-12-24T15:52:00Z")
Attempted degree, though, as she succesfully manages to first stave it off by her wit and later escape it. Definitely not a passive girl, nor someone afraid of hard work (she’s a perfectly fine serving girl, albeit one who her masters wish would wash more often). ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/89 "2013-12-24T16:13:53Z")
> [@Rala](#): > > Oh, it does not. Ariel was \*always \*fascinated by humans and the world on land. Becoming human was her dream long before she knew Eric existed. There was a whole musical number about it! Which she did absolutely nothing about until after she rescued Eric from the sea and she got legs from Ursula specifically to find him rather than to simply be human. Beauty and the Beast is more of a tangle. The Beast is a dick who keeps her locked in his castle but it’s apparently a very loose sort of lock as she’s wandering all over the place and if we’re allowing sequels, jaunting off into the middle of the woods for christmas trees and crap. Belle is very standoffish and cold to the beast until he starts treating her nicely so it’s not like she has no backbone at all and when he tells her she can leave to find her father, she leaves immediately which doesn’t really jive with stockholm syndrome. But by the end we’re firmly back in icky territory with the climax that seems to say, “Love enough and even a horrible person will become the perfect partner.” ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/90 "2013-12-24T16:41:38Z")
Here is the most thoughtful [thing](http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2009/01/can_narcissism_be_cured.html) I’ve read about the influence of pop-culture: > [@](#): > > The 1980s said: “TV is a bad influence, pushing our children down the wrong path.” Of course, it’s Newton’s First Law: a body moves in the direction of the force unless it is opposed by another force. > > Where will they learn about love? They could learn from TV, or they could learn it from the generation adults with the highest divorce rates in history. They could learn about the difficulties of raising kids from an ABC/Disney Special, or from the generation with the lowest birth rates in history. They could learn about morality from Sesame Street, or… but Dad always remembered to send in his pledge to PBS. > > Parents had no time for any of these lessons. So instead, to feel like parents, they worried that too much sex on TV would turn everyone into sluts. That didn’t happen, I spent most of my twenties checking. What did happen, however, is that a generation of males started overtly, without shame, craving sluts, and a generation of women would often pretend to be sluts. Think about this: the act was that they were sluttier than they actually were, not more pure than they actually were. > > Parents were right: TV could influence kids. But not in the expected way. > > But wait-- could TV be so powerful? No, of course not. But how much force do you really need to push a child in a polyester snow suit across a frozen driveway? > > People ask: “why do you focus on pop culture?” Because that’s all the culture 300 million Americans ever received for 30+ years. If the only culture that a little girl gets is from modern Disney movies and from parents raised on older Disney movies, then she’s going to have problems. There is nothing wrong about children playing with princesses so long as someone teaches them about unrealistic expectations. I think the same logic applies to [men and porn](http://foxandbunny.wordpress.com/2010/06/11/insatiable-whore/). ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/91 "2013-12-24T19:17:15Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The reason? I rely on my kid being able, even when very young, to know the difference between fantasy and reality. If he caould not, I’d have a very rough time of it, because just about every fantasy he is into or could possibly be into has ‘negative’ subtexts. I’m arriving in this thread rather late, but I wanted to respond to this. There’s been scientific research on this issue, and based on what I’ve read, it’s been firmly established that small children do not distinguish between fantasy and reality. Obviously we would hope that children who are immersed in a certain fantasy when they’re children will be able to distinguish it as a fantasy when they’re grown up, but during the time when they are children, they can’t. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/92 "2013-12-24T19:22:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m arriving in this thread rather late, but I wanted to respond to this. There’s been scientific research on this issue, and based on what I’ve read, it’s been firmly established that small children do not distinguish between fantasy and reality. Obviously we would hope that children who are immersed in a certain fantasy when they’re children will be able to distinguish it as a fantasy when they’re grown up, but during the time when they are children, they can’t. Of course, very small children face few consequences of thinking Dora the Explorer is a real person. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/93 "2013-12-24T20:44:12Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I’m arriving in this thread rather late, but I wanted to respond to this. There’s been scientific research on this issue, and based on what I’ve read, it’s been firmly established that small children do not distinguish between fantasy and reality. Obviously we would hope that children who are immersed in a certain fantasy when they’re children will be able to distinguish it as a fantasy when they’re grown up, but during the time when they are children, they can’t. How little are you talking about? We are talking about “little girls”, I assumed around 7 or 8. To me that’s “vey young”. but obviously it isn’t true if we are talking about toddlers. My 8 year old boy can definitely tell the difference between fantasy and reality, in my opinion. If you claim he can’t, all I can say is - cite? ---
**Author:** ![Reno\_Nevada](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Reno\_Nevada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reno_Nevada)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/94 "2013-12-24T22:12:05Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > We even developed a saying we still use to encourage each other: “Be a princess” It’s based on the example of Elizabeth I of England. I hope that you and your nieces regularly say “I have the body of a weak, feeble woman, but I have the heart and stomach of X” as appropriate. [QUOTE=Elizabeth I, Queen of England, Defender of the Faith] … I am come amongst you, as you see, at this time, not for my recreation and disport, but being resolved, in the midst and heat of the battle, to live and die amongst you all; to lay down for my God, and for my kingdom, and my people, my honour and my blood, even in the dust. I know I have the body of a weak, feeble woman; but I have the heart and stomach of a king, and of a king of England too, and think foul scorn that Parma or Spain, or any prince of Europe, should dare to invade the borders of my realm; to which rather than any dishonour shall grow by me, I myself will take up arms… [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/95 "2013-12-24T22:50:31Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > You know, that’s the one with all the incest. It’s also called Donkeyskin. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/96 "2013-12-25T00:31:48Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Interesting articles: > > [School tells girls they aren’t princesses.](http://www.today.com/moms/girls-school-tells-students-youre-not-princess-2D11585037) > > [Anti-princess branding](http://www.csmonitor.com/The-Culture/Family/Modern-Parenthood/2013/1121/Anti-princess-branding-beyond-the-bandwagon) > > [I’m a feminist and my daughter is a princess](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/hayley-krischer/im-a-feminist-momand-my-d_b_998130.html) > > [Princess wars](http://www.phillymag.com/news/2013/11/14/huffington-post-mercy-academy-you-are-not-a-princess-wars/). > > I’m a child of the 80s. The only princess who was on my radar was Shera, who I don’t even remember that well. The only Disney movie I remember watching in a semi-obsessive fashion was “Dumbo”. When I was a kid, I wanted my mother to buy me Underoos. No princesses were in the Justice League. > > So I guess this thing took off some time in the 90s? Maybe later? Why is it so bad now? > > But is it REALLY that bad? I know I’d rather my daughter be like I was as a kid, which would mean being as far away from a “princess” as possible. But is there any research showing that the kind of make-believe children participate in shapes their personalities and performance later in life? If we continue to see young women doing well in school and entering STEM fields, wouldn’t this debunk the claim that society is at risk of raising a bunch of spoiled, self-centered, high-maintenance women? Well, I’m all for it if we can ban superhero crap being sold to little boys. ---
**Author:** ![Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Brynhildr\_Budladottir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brynhildr_Budladottir)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/97 "2013-12-25T08:42:03Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Well, I’m all for it if we can ban superhero crap being sold to little boys. It’s a similar but not really equivalent problem. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/98 "2013-12-25T19:44:08Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > … > > Again, not all princess fantasies involve being a beautiful, passive ornament. But it behooves a parent to make sure that a child has an opportunity to explore some of the problems with the one particular aspect of the princess daydream, and not simply internalize it unquestioned. After Disney’s acquisition of several additional media franchises late last year, there’s now a [Disney princess](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-0ClYuhyiQQc/UJKaZTUS2LI/AAAAAAAABIA/M66kpbtX2Uc/s1600/disney-princess-leia.jpg) who chokes giant slugs to death and almost slept with her own brother. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2013, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/99 "2013-12-25T20:25:57Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How little are you talking about? We are talking about “little girls”, I assumed around 7 or 8. To me that’s “vey young”. but obviously it isn’t true if we are talking about toddlers. > > My 8 year old boy can definitely tell the difference between fantasy and reality, in my opinion. If you claim he can’t, all I can say is - cite? Your son can presumably distinguish between _obvious_ fantasy (e.g. Harry Potter flying on his broom) and reality, but even adults do not possess a foolproof ability to distinguish between truth and fiction. That’s why people fall for urban legends. There are plenty of adults who believe all kinds of inaccurate things about law enforcement and the justice system based on what they’ve seen in movies and on TV, and that’s an area where it could potentially be very important to know the truth about how things work in real life. ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2013, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950/100 "2013-12-26T03:17:33Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > How little are you talking about? We are talking about “little girls”, I assumed around 7 or 8. To me that’s “vey young”. but obviously it isn’t true if we are talking about toddlers. > > My 8 year old boy can definitely tell the difference between fantasy and reality, in my opinion. If you claim he can’t, all I can say is - cite? The research that I’ve read focuses on children ages 6 and under. I’d agree that at more advanced ages, children start distinguishing between fantasy and reality, but it’s a process that goes on for a long time, and as **Lamia** said, even adults aren’t perfect in this regard. When I was in second or third grade, I read a number of books on UFOs, alien abductions, the Bermuda Triangle, and stuff of that sort. At the time it never occurred to me to question that what was in the books was true. I might, by that time, have been fully aware that something like _The Hobbit_ was fantasy, but plainly I still had a long way to go before thinking critically about all the material I encountered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/little-girls-and-princesses-a-real-menace-or-harmless-fun/674950.md?page=6)